Need second card for CC monitoring!

[Rudi Herbert]

Obin, Paul, anybody else

I'm running CS4 on a nice i-7 system, 12 gigs DDR3 RAM, OS on a SSD RAID 0 set up (as per Paul Leeming's suggestions, blazingly fast might I add and a couple of RAID 0 set ups (with proper back up) for scratch disk and video storage. I am still using the ATI card that came with the system to run my editing monitors, I use two Samsung 25.5" for my work area, and the card handles them without problem so far. However, I need to install a second card to feed a third monitor for color correction work. I don't need this card to give me tons of up and down conversion options, and tons of analog and SDI connections, just to feed a monitor with as accurate an image as possible. I'm planning on getting the 24" HP Dreamcolor for that purpose, so which card can I get, as cost effective as possible, that will allow me to perform fairly accurate (please remember I said "fairly") color work on such a monitor? Suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[sander kamp]

The best way - if I understrand correctly - is to have a video card with HDSDI out and then connect the Dreamcolor through a HDSDI to RGB HDMI converter from AJA or Gefen. Key is here that the HDMI is RGB and not YUV, because the Dreamcolor graphics engine doesn't work with normal YUV HDMI.

Another way is connecting the Dreamcolor through DVI but then you don't get the video refresh rates which means motion won't be smooth.

 

[Stepan Kment]

any...

any...

imho - HDSDI may be a bad idea. It limits you to Rec709 and nothing else. If You aim for cinema and not just HD, I don't think that's good. However, if HD is Your only target, then yes, on the other hand, SDI direct view is perfect.
---
You are right, to my experience, really two GPU cards needed, even Lustre setups come with two nVidia Quadros and I doubt because of GPU power: these LUT registers are probably the limitation, one really needs one set per one display.

Attach any GPU You can and is compatible with Your motherboard, no matter what it is, just ensure it has pixel shader model ver. 3 - which basically any contemorary GPU does. Just check, if You have empty PCI express slot etc..

Then, You may consider using the primary calibrated display to view the comp, put everything else on the secondary panel, that's what I do now, my pain is too few slots on mobo, I have too many PCIe cards in there, raid, HD i/o...

And yes, these HPs are nice. I have 2475 and it has better than AdobeRGB gamut, though bit slow redraw for video. As a primary, I have Eizo CG241, that's MPVA matrix.. and.. simply Eizo , color manages itself, beautiful and very easy to use. The advantage is when You change ICC profile, it directly sets itself to new settings - with HP, I have to change ICC profile and in another step using HP's software also set the display settings (contrast etc.. what one can set in on screen menu), which is a bit boring, when You work for HD and cinema targets in parallel. Actually, as Eizo has its own many bit signal processing, Im not even sure it actually uses GPU LUTs at all, it has some color conversion embedded, who knows..

 

[Chris Kenny]

Mind you I don't own one and haven't tested this, but on paper the MXO2 looks like the ideal device to drive the Dreamcolor, since it seems to be able to provide 1080p 10-bit RGB over HDMI.

Of course it pretty much only works with Final Cut Studio on the Mac, so this may or may not be of any use in any specific setup. Personally this sort of has us turned off about the whole thing because we've been evaluating the possibility of moving to CS4 for Red projects, and we'd rather not buy hardware that precludes that possibility. There is some limited support for After Effects on the Mac with the MXO2 and they have made some noises about supporting Premiere, but there's no firm release date as far as I've seen.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

SDI conversions and MXO2 etc.. aside, the real issue here is that Rudi needs a way to get 1080p @ 10bit out of the computer. The DreamColor display only accepts 10bit via the DisplayPort connector, or so I am told, and not via the DVI/HDMI. However, I can't seem to find anyone that can actually confirm this and there is so much marketing double-talk and differing information from HP about it, how does one tell for sure without connecting it to known 10bit sources.

Rudi, it looks like you're on a PC. If so, that's one step in the right direction, because there are currently no display cards on the Mac that offer 10bit output over any port. The exception is video capture/monitoring cards from AJA, BMD, etc.. Which is probably going to be your best solution anyway, regardless of platform.

On Windows, there are some video cards getting 10bit (30bits/pixel) support within their drivers. But like I just said, you're probably better off with other solutions like the AJA cards, if you want accurate color and mature driver support, product aimed at video professionals, etc..

I don't know what the budget is here, but I would take a good look at the new Xena LHi from AJA (Kona LHi for Mac users). It provides both 3G HD-SDI and HDMI 1.3a (30/36bpp deep color) I/O. And it's about $1200. It supports up to 1080p. If you need full 2K, then you'll have to go elsewhere (Kona3, Xena2K). But I would seriously consider one of these along with a good prosumer HDTV monitor with HDMI 1.3a and decent service functions. Forget that DreamColor thing... But that's just me. $1800 for a 24" LCD when for the same money I can buy a 42" plasma with HDMI 1.3a input and a wider color gamut? ...Just sayin'

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Jeff,

You're right, the Dreamcolor has me a bit ambivalent and undecided. However, this system (which I have three of with the same specs) is not really aimed at high end all-RED work. I want to do mostly XDCAM, AVCHD and HDV work there with the occasional RED work when the main systems are backed up. Having said that, it is amazing how well and easy this $2K machine can edit R3D at 1K and lower resolutions, unnervingly easy. But I was hoping not to spend a ton on a card just to drive a display. And for the display itself, all I really want is something to reproduce colors adequately enough so that I can color correct my projects without worrying about blues turning to green or reds to magenta, or what have you, which can be done FARLY WELL (please don't kill me mmost without a high end set up.

I used to grade on CRT's and truth be said, all of the things I graded there went to HD broadcast and several to big screen film outs. There was a small amount of variance from the final look to what I saw in my screen, but it was small enough not to matter, and most importantly, it affected the whole color spectrum, not certain parts of it. For me, as long as the whole color spectrum of an image shifts slightly one way or another, there's no problem, because the mood, the idea, the feel behind the color grade are still there. Separations between colors disrupts the flow, but slight, total tonal shifts are fine. Now that I've revamped everything and gotten rid of the CRT's, I'm having a tough time deciding how to go about setting up these systems with a "fairly adequate, predictably variable" color monitoring option, that's all...

Are you sure a plasma would allow proper calibration for color work?!

 

[M Most]

imho - HDSDI may be a bad idea. It limits you to Rec709 and nothing else. If You aim for cinema and not just HD, I don't think that's good.

HDSDI is just a transport. It is used to feed everything from VTRs to monitors to Digital Cinema projectors. The information it carries has nothing to do with a particular monitor specification. The modern definition of HD-SDI handles everything from 720p and 1080p to 4:4:4 RGB at 3Gbps. And in dual link guise, it handles everything from 4:4:4 RGB to Arri's proprietary RAW format.

 

[M Most]

Are you sure a plasma would allow proper calibration for color work?!

It does for virtually every post facility in Los Angeles.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

It does for virtually every post facility in Los Angeles.

Thanks Mike, I was hoping you'd chime in here to tell you the truth. So, assuming I go for a plasma, then does HDMI or HDSDI have any advantage over one another? And for color work, does maximum resolution of the display matter? Meaning, a lot of them can show 1080p material but the display's actual resolution is only 720p. I don't quite care what and how, as long as it's not as heavy as a CRT, has a screen size over 20" and reproduces colors accurately enough not to show up at the post house and wonder where my grade went when reviewing it on their 2K projector...

 

[Santiago Marti]

Yes, the dreamcolor monitor accepts 10bit signal over displayport, i am using it with the nvidia quadro cx. Overpriced, yes, but looks really nice! good luck!

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

HP Dreamcolor accepts 10 bit over HDMI as well....

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Matrox MXO2 mini has some issue with the Dreamcolor as the Dreamcolor expects a TRUE 23.98P (Or 24P) signal to use the profiles....MXO2 mini only support 24psf at 1080...

 

[Chris Kenny]

Matrox MXO2 mini has some issue with the Dreamcolor as the Dreamcolor expects a TRUE 23.98P (Or 24P) signal to use the profiles....MXO2 mini only support 24psf at 1080...

Does it even do that? The spec sheet only lists 720p and 1080i @ 50, 59.94 and 1080p @ 25, 29.97.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this sure seems like deliberate market segmentation to get higher end customers to buy the non-mini MXO2.

 

[Mike Harrington]

matrox mxo2 mini for PC
>$500
10 bit output through HDMI (4:2:2 only but big deal)

panasonic plasma...g12 panel...10 bit color good for HD grading
>$2000

you pay a lot more if you want HDSDI....

if you want to go the dreamcolor way
get the ATI FirePro(10 bit displayport) for less then half the price of the quadro....and skip the cost of the SDI to displayport adapter

 

[Stepan Kment]

8/10bit..

8/10bit..

HDSDI is just a transport. It is used to feed everything from VTRs to monitors to Digital Cinema projectors. The information it carries has nothing to do with a particular monitor specification. The modern definition of HD-SDI handles everything from 720p and 1080p to 4:4:4 RGB at 3Gbps. And in dual link guise, it handles everything from 4:4:4 RGB to Arri's proprietary RAW format.

right, but question is why to use SDI at all in this case. And 10-bit. When he claims he doesn't aim for highest end work esp, why to care about 10-bit preview at all. Look at some reasonable LCD with IPS or PVA matrix in 8bit, then create a gradient there trying to torture it. It will look probably quite fine. These extra two bits add even more smooth gradients, however I really don't see much advantage over 8bit easy connection for real world imagery.

Please note this is someting completely different from shooting many bit RAW and also storing the data via 10/12bit SDI. You certainly need many bits for exposure adjustments freedom. And esp. 10bit is needed, if the transport is YUV, where vast part of YUV gamut represents nothing RGB can interpret, so more bits are useful even for common video.

* However for preview of the video on a typical display, there normally is no shift at all and if, only some slight shift in GPU's LUT registers, so OK, instead of full 8bits in DVI, say 7 and 1/2 or whatever bits remain. Which still is quite OK.
* Also internal display's processing must completely work in many bits, plus its TFT LCD matrix, too. Which is uneasy, but maybe achievable today.
* If the display's gamut is very large, eg. much over say AdobeRGB, then OK, 8bits may cause visible artifacts. However I wish I had this display on my desk and it had not only great shiny colors, but also deep blacks. Yes, some plasmas maybe.

I don't want to say 10bit display is wrong, certainly better - and You really have to use DisplayPort for this and also software that can support this bit depth on output (can't say how MAC does support it, on a PC, well... I worry). Just for critical color work, use projector and for non-critical, 8 bits are fine.

Maybe I am missing something? :scared:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Uh... Why would anyone not want 10bit if they want to do any form of semi-serious color correction? Yes 8bit does OK, but 10bit still does better and there are economical solutions to be had for doing this. Stepan, you answer your own question about why 10bit right here, "You certainly need many bits for exposure adjustments freedom. And esp. 10bit is needed, if the transport is YUV, where vast part of YUV gamut represents nothing RGB can interpret, so more bits are useful even for common video." When shooting REDCODE RAW, that functionality you just mentioned is reserved for the post process. Doing CC work on RED footage is no different than doing CC work on a still photo, it's just a moving image and not a static one. Rudi is looking for a good color processing solution that is on the "affordable" end of things. Which is very do-able.

Also, why anyone is trying to dream up solutions to use HD-SDI to DisplayPort conversion is beyond me. That's extra unnecessary hardware and cost, introducing one more conversion in the pipeline that could potentially effect the image.

The DreamColor is a nice LCD. But unless we're talking about maximizing space in a cramped office cubicle or small apartment, I honestly don't see the allure of this panel at the current price point. Yes, I have seen the DreamColor in action, connected to a 10bit DisplayPort source. It is very nice for a 24" LCD.

Those who are questioning the image of a plasma display need to go take a look and compare. Current plasma displays give several times the tonal range and contrast separation that the DreamColor can deliver and they can do it at a similar price point, with a larger physical screen size.

HD-SDI is just a transport like mmost mentions. In this particular application -- budget color grading, it's not necessary. HD-SDI adds a lot of cost to a system like this and is not entirely necessary in a smaller shop. FWIW, I can tell you that a lot of the plasmas out there being used by post houses are being driven by HDMI. It cuts the price of the display in half and still delivers the image they are looking for. All the good plasmas these days have lots of controls and calibration tools. If the plasma HDTV is capable of being ISF calibrated, then you will do fine with calibrating it for color work. The Panasonic 42" G15 (11th gen panel) is a beautiful display and can be had for under US$1400. It stomps the DreamColor into the dirt with native 20,000:1 contrast and over 6500 levels of levels of gradation for all color channels. The Panasonic Pro 11 series panels are tweaked differently than this unit and actually give better contrast (30,000:1 native for the top end models), but they are more expensive.

Alternatively, if more space is available for a physically larger display unit, DLP rear projection units are also another great choice. And then the ultimate option for color suites right now would be a 2K DLP projector.

 

[Mike Harrington]

I don't want to say 10bit display is wrong, certainly better - and You really have to use DisplayPort for this and also software that can support this bit depth on output (can't say how MAC does support it, on a PC, well... I worry). Just for critical color work, use projector and for non-critical, 8 bits are fine.

Maybe I am missing something? :scared:

are you saying your worried if a PC supports 10 bit or not?

also HDMI 1.3 is capabe of up to 10, 12, and 16bit color and at resolutions up to 2500x1600 ...so display port is not absolutely neccesarry

my recommendations for best bang for the buck card is the upcoming IO express from aja
http://www.aja.com/products/io/io-express.php

same idea as the matrox mxo mini...but with HDSDI as well
good for your laptop and desktop mac and PC
10 bit color
$1000

 

[Stepan Kment]

are you saying your worried if a PC supports 10 bit or not?

also HDMI 1.3 is capabe of up to 10, 12, and 16bit color and at resolutions up to 2500x1600 ...so display port is not absolutely neccesarry

same idea as the matrox mxo mini...but with HDSDI as well
good for your laptop and desktop mac and PC
10 bit color $1000

yes, I do say that I am worry. The fact HDMI supprorts 10bit in HW connection by far doesn't mean the GPU and OS do support this, too. And apps.

eg - just fast googling
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33946942

looking at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb172558(VS.85).aspx#BackBuffer_or_Display_Formats
shows 10bit is one of available variants. But whether the GPU actually ouputs it..

again, I don't say it is a no way. Maybe You'll find some way. In certain apps. And again, unless working with some very high end displays and certain gradients, I am not sure if it will really be necessary for a processing preview. Imho, proper color management is by far more critical, really.

 

[Stepan Kment]

GPU trouble..

GPU trouble..

.. and read here, another fast google result.

http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/reviews/index.cfm?reviewid=910&page=1&pagepos=1

at least in Windows environment, all the colors are entered as truecolor 8-bit values. So it certainly can't be expected everything will natively support 10-bit, even if the HW was ready. Haven't seen any GPU that would allow one to set in common Win display properties to set anything better than truecolor mode yet :frown2: - this is where SDI might help as drivers for that support many bit depth and if the app accesses the drivers to access the SDI i/o framebuffer, then yes, maybe. Of course, apps render often in high quality, the problem is just the output itself, really.

I encourage anyone successful in this challenge to post their setup and SW that supports this, again, SW must use specific image surface to render the output. I expect some firegl/quadro HW, displayport and perhaps HDMI.. and some unknown software.

 

[Mike Harrington]

yes it's possible that the software would not support 10 bit.

but all the referances you showed demonstrated it is possible.
the one referance to the guy hooking up his barco was probably using DVI out....since he stated that display port and DVI was the only output on the card.

The drivers will be with the matrox, and aja cards...I'm quite sure.

I just found it interesting that people assuming Mac will support it and not PC.