Need Help - Building up a sync sound audio system.

[pawitter parmar]

Hello everyone,


I recently produced my first ever low budget Regional (punjabi) film. For the audio I used the Zoom H4N handy recorder. The problem I faced was that after the movie was fully edited we had to dub every dialogue in the studio which was a big pain, to avoid this in my next film production I am planning to buy a proper sync sound audio system to use on my red one, alexa, scarlet and epic. Could someone please suggest me the right equipment within the budget of 10000 usd. Please note# this equipment would be used in india and the environment is quite noisy and also I would like a setup which I could build upon in the future (eg. An intermediate system to a pro system).


Thank you

 

[Dave Blackham]

It spend money on Microphones. They hardly depreciate if you buy best kit.

Prefered set up.

Sennheiser MKH 30/40 and 30/60 set up. You may get away with one 30 and 40/60 but would be good to have two MS mic set ups. You could also consider Shoeps CMIT and CCM8 and CCM4 or CCM41 and CCM8 MS pairs.

Get a short Panamic pole 1M and also a long pole for Drama use. Whichever pole make sure it doesn't rattle. Long Panamic poles can be found used inexpensively, less costly than short ones.

A good inexpensive Non TC recorder is a Tascam DR-100. Get an external Battery box for it if you use this as it eats power. You may consider something like a Cantar if you want a High end recorder. if your in a Fixed location then you can consider alternative approaches like using Gallerys Metacorder software on a mac laptop http://www.gallery.co.uk/metacorder/intro.html which is excellent.

Our preference for Battery powered Mixers is SQN. We prefer also Audio Radio mics for quality. There are other brands, Lectro being one that have better intelligent tools to auto select frequency but it takes a very good mic to beat a 2040 for quality and RF range.

There are a huge amount of Audio 2020's on the UK used market right now very inexpensively due to the imposed channel changes, I don't know about radio licensing in India if they are suitable or not. PM me if you need contacts and I can put you in touch with companies selling them.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

We have a Zaxcom Nomad audio recorder. It's a combo mixer/recorder. You'll need a 4 pin LEMO to BNC adaptor for syncing timecode between the Nomad and your camera. We also run a mono mic level output from the Nomad to my Scarlet for a scratch track. This is either done with an XLR cable or a sennheiser wireless unit. For mics we have a Rode NTG-3 and 2 Voice Technologies lavs with sennheiser G3 wireless units. The audio quality is amazing and sync couldn't be easier. There is no need to even slate shots for syncing (some may disagree. works for us.). The one thing you have to worry about though is that Scarlet/Epic cameras will need to be jamsynced frequently (it's easy) if you don't leave the timecode cable connected. The timecode will drift.

You can get this setup for your budget.

 

[Christopher Mills]

I do not understand why David suggested stereo mic rigs.. The point of recording dialog is to get a clean mono track with as little of the ambient sound as possible, then get a sample of environement (room tone), and mix them later. Your dialog edit will be messy if you have recorded it in stereo.

though I do understand the suggestion that good mics are a very long term investment.

My suggestions are for a large bag rig, rather than a full featured cart, and do not address wireless or video monitoring for the mixer.

they assume that you will have a dedicated mixer and a boom op. (yes, I know that's a little out of norm for a bag rig, but it is hard to mix dialog and boom at same time, and I am trying to suggest a very portable rig.

I suggest, for reliablity, noise reduction, and tc capability the following:
You did not specify track count, but I will make suggestions from low to high:
I do suggest a time code solution to your camera which can be wireless.. long cables are cheaper.... and perhaps you can afford the labor to handle those while shooting

Recorder/mixer combo units
Sound Devices 552
(cheapest... will require a TC source)
2 tracks of recording.. 5 inputs, battery power... excellent preamps and limiters.
not strictly speaking a Sync recorder unless you keep an external TC signal plugged in... if you do that, it is great

You will also want a boom cable system to feed the boom operator..
Reccomend PSC and Remote Audio duplex cable systems
probably need this for every setup

Sound Devices 744t
Pro... 4 tracks, great preamps, very stable TC.. adds metadata and multiple frame rates to your recording options
COn.. harder to "mix" with controls than the 552.. they would make a very powerful combo.
needs a different duplex cabel setup for the boom op

Upcoming Sound Devices 664
http://www.trewaudio.com/store/Sound-Devices-664-Portable-Six-Channel-Mixer.html
Addresses control interface issues of the 744t
Advantage.. Price.. real TC Clock
CON... not known yet.. as its only now shipping..
You theoretically could use a senn g3 or g2 or comtek pair to send TC to your camera... but for same money, get a denecke box and sync from this and leave it on the camers

Zaxcom Nomad.
People like this, it can be ordered in 4, 6 or 8 tracks...
at high end of its price range, it can be used to send wireless feed to $500 each receivers... not sure if TC can be sent on that circuit

Cons... mixed reviews on interface.
Zax TC is not considered as bulletproof as the Ambient built clock in the SD stuff.

you need to order the fully loaded version to get the wireless capability

TC..
Get at least one Denecke box with the HD TC rates... Ambient is the gold standard, but will cost more.. I like them both.. but denecke has a non-tri level model that will cover most jobs.. they and ambient are tied for quality and price range ont he gen-lock capable boxes... leave this box on your camera..

Mics..
for RF resistance: I love the Sennheiser 416... super reliable.
Close second.. Rode Nt G3 both of these are great in heat and humidity and rugged as hell..
if you buy the RF resistant xlr cable end for your boom cable, you can use the ROde in RF hostile environments.
For better isolation.. and rejection of ambient noise..
Sanken CS-3 the best at dealing with rejecting off axis noise, in my experience... not sure how it fares in high humidity.. if you get it actually immersed, then it is back to the factory for overhaul.

short mics.. consider the oktava M -012 film edition.. about $300.. very reliable.. much better sound than the competition in its price range.
a little more money.. Audio technica 4053

Booms... get the K-Tek or Ambient if you can afford them... if you cant.. Lightwave GT10... heavier.. but very durable internal cable.. good locks.. I use one on ENG jobs, and it has held up under terrible environments.
The Ambient 5140 is wonderful... but costs triple..

Rode has some package deals I think you should consider.. including their windscreens...
also, you are in India.. where lots of budget windscreens are made.. try some of those out.. they are not durable, but they might be helpful to youif you take good care of them.
Cables: SPEND the money on high quality shielded cables.. they will protect you from RF noise, bad connctions, etc... dont skimp here..

Wireless... hooo boy.. I don't think you have that in your budget...If you are starting out.. used sennheiser G2s with Oscar Sound Tech lavs
Or used 200 series Lectrosonics.. or maybe LMA and UCR 100 sets...

IFB.. also probably not going to happen in your budget.. maybe watch out for Comtek 72 series packages...



Upcoming
Zaxcom Maxx
some feature overlap with 664..

 

[Brandon J.F.]

One other plus about the Zaxcom Nomad is it's upgradeable. You can start with the 4ch version and upgrade to the 6, 8 or 12 channel version anytime. You pay a $300 fee plus the price difference and mail the unit back to the manufacturer.

Wireless is included in the 6, 8 and 12 channel versions, but not the 4 channel. You don't really need it though since if you want wireless you'll need to look at Sennheiser g2 or g3 systems to not go over budget.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I do not understand why David suggested stereo mic rigs.. The point of recording dialog is to get a clean mono track with as little of the ambient sound as possible, then get a sample of environement (room tone), and mix them later. Your dialog edit will be messy if you have recorded it in stereo.

The point about MS Mics is the M mic is mono and can be used in Mono with out any issues whatsoever, the S capsule can widen the sound stage if needed and of course creates perfect stereo sound stage if needed. The MKH 60 or CMIT can always be used as a Mono standalone mic if needed. There is absolutely nothing added on location to the M component of an MS pair on location that affects the mono source excepting the additional benefit of adding eh S component if the Sound designer and mixer chooses to do so. What you would not want to do is capture AB stereo which would affect matrixing a mono feed from a stereo pair.

A wild track can be captured after the sync recording or at a later time using the carded and Figure 8 par as you don't want to be capturing wild track on a short gun figure 8 pair if you can avoid it. So I think we disagree in terms of technique.

I do think the suggestion of a Sound Design 744 or similar is a good choice though.

 

[pawitter parmar]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your helping hand. I am a noob in field audio so all your suggestions were of great help. See if you guys can help me out with where I can buy this stuff at good prices and from a reliable seller.

Thank you so much.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

See if you guys can help me out with where I can buy this stuff at good prices and from a reliable seller.

There are several good companies. I ordered from these guys: http://www.pro-sound.com/

 

[Christopher Mills]

David.. I was not sure if the film maker was doing drama or docs.. I would use your approach for a documentary, but not for a posted in the US drama.. where we are expected to deliver a mono only track in most cases.
We are also strongly expected to record our room or environment track in the same orientation mic position, other equipment in the physical space, people in the room, etc as when the scene's dialog was spoken. Later on is not a match.. that's sound effects gathering.. which may indeed benefit from being in stereo.
However, Steven Soderberg usually has a stereo mic in the set gathering his room tone at the same time as production, with a multitrack recorder running (744 and/or 788).
separate sound mixer responsible for this, but same TC as the dialog recorder and cameras.. and shoots on his own RED cameras...
I worked on Contagion's scenes inside the real CDC, and this is what I saw/heard there... I was the EPK audio mixer on that shoot. I have probably been on over 2000 days of US based studio dramatic production over the last 25 years.. and report what I see in the field...




I felt if he (the OP)was trying to stretch his budget, and were working in many places (outdoors) in India, that a bulletproof mono shotgun might help him... I was not sure the caridiod pattern mkh 40 is as useful in somewhat uncontrollable locations)
I feel he wouldnt get enough performance increase from an MKH60 over a 416... I do think the CMIT is a "swiss army knife" solution, but that I did not know how it resisted humidity.... It is probably among my favorites..
I also omitted the MKH50... which I think is a wonderful sounding hyper... but one that does is not "color-neutral" on its audio characteristics..

I live in the VERY humid SE US, and have worked here and in the Carribean.. the 416 always worked.... though there have been many sets where a hyper is what I use.. for a better sound for the environment.

 

[Kirk.Attard]

Hi All. Very interesting topics here - I'm in the same boat of Mr.Parmar.

Just need to ask one question.
Would the following setup work.?

The Scarlet can jam to a time code right? So if I swtch the Scarlet on, jam it to a generator like for example an sb-3 (denecke) and then jam the time code of the sb-3 again into an audio recorder that accepts time code I should be good to go. Unless I power down the camera of course or the recorder.
And if I go for the new sound devices (664) which has a built in generator I should just jam it to the recorder right?
Just want to simplify things, as lately there has been millions of options on how people seem to sync their audio.

Thanks a lot.

P.S Edit - Does the time code generator has to stay fixed with the camera/recorder or once its jammed it can be pulled off? If this is so I have two use two sb-3's right?
Excuse my lack of knowledge. First time going for a synced audio.

Thanks a lot in advance
Kirk

 

[Brandon J.F.]

The Scarlet can jam to a time code right?

Yes, it's easy. You just need a cable that will convert the timecode ouput connector of your timecode source to RED's 4-pin LEMO connector. We use the timecode generator that's built into our mixer/recorder as the source. Jamsyncing is as easy as plugging in the cable and waiting for the "TC" on the touch screen to go green. Takes 1-2 seconds or so.

I don't have any experience with using a dedicated unit as a timecode source. Hopefully someone who does can give you some advice about that.

Does the time code generator has to stay fixed with the camera/recorder or once its jammed it can be pulled off?

You can do either. If you remove the cable you should jamsync again every couple hours at least. We try to keep the cable connected as much as possible and if we remove it we make sure to jamsync again every hour at least. The reason being Scarlet/Epic don't hold sync all that well and after a few hours timecode may drift.

I would suggest running a mono output from your recorder to your camera so you will have a scratch track. That way you don't have to sync audio to get dailies with audio and if timecode ever drifts you can use pluraleyes to sync the master sound files with the scratch track.

 

[Kirk.Attard]

Thanks Brandon.

That was quick and enlightining. Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I never studied a lot about audio and dont want to skimp on it for our first feature.
Thanks a lot indeed.

The idea of the scratch track is indeed good. I wouldnt want to sync a bunch of clips for the director every evening!

 

[Christopher Mills]

BEST practice is to use the sb3 as a continuous jam to the camera... you can teach it what start time is from the recorder.
I you use a nomad or deva or fusion, I would rejam the recorder periodically from the sb3.... as some firmware versions will drift a little when the recorder is powered down..
a safe practice is to not power down and not reset the mirroring drive selection on these recorders, unless you are able to re-jam the TC.
networks and studios want you to leave a tc box on each camera... some want you to let them drift thru the day, some want a fresh jam from a set master clock half way through the shooting day.
I have had decent results leaving my Zaxcom Deva powered up the entire day, and running my hard line cable to the EPIC every time it is freshly powered up.

 

[Mano Guha]

Hi Pawitter,
Perhaps this will reach you too late...

I was trained as a sound recordist in India, worked there for over a decade. Now I work as a production sound mixer in the NYC area with a few features under my belt. I also own a Red One MX. The best investment you can do about getting good sound is to hire a good sound recordist and a trained boom operator, preferably who are graduates of Jamia Millia (my alma mater), or from the film institutes in Pune, Bangalore, Chennai or Kolkata.

I wouldn't get too bogged down about running timecode or even running sound to the camera unless it is a reference. I use an Edirol R-4 pro without a mixer, with another one for additional tracks or simply as backup. 4 tracks of pure goodness. I have modified it to run on NP-1 batteries. A good portabrace like bag is essential to save it from the elements. I had mine made from my bag wallah in Delhi. These recorders can be picked for $400 on eBay. As they have no moving parts, they last for years.

The other best friend is a good shotgun which works under noisy conditions. My favorite is the MKH-60. I have two as I prefer to use two boom operators instead of lav-ing my actors. Good blimps, shockmounts and poles are made in the Chandigargh FTZ. Talkback with your boom operator is also key, but I will leave that for another post.

I hope your shoot went well...

Best,
mano