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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ND filters?

E

Eric Rodemann

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Will the Scarlet have built in ND filters like the Af100, or do I need to get a matte box and filters?

I did do a search, but it turned up nada. I searched for "nd filter".
 
I would really doubt it.

Maybe the fixed-lens Scarlet ... but even then. :thumbdown:

IMHO, it really screams prosumer.
 
And for anything else, there is always screw-on filters. Do a search for posts by Steve Gibby and you'll see that he uses them extensively in the kind of work he does. A matte box is not always necessary.
 
Peter Matthes said:
I would really doubt it.

Maybe the fixed-lens Scarlet ... but even then. :thumbdown:

IMHO, it really screams prosumer.
Click to expand...

Hmm...I couldn't disagree with you more.

The Fixed Lens Scarlet has extensive professional potential as a mobile EFP camera system. The camera features which unlock that potential are a small form factor, a fixed lens with the 35mm equivalent of 28mm to 224mm, auto-focus capability when needed (selectable for manual too), auto-iris capability when needed (selectable for manual too), capability for easy addition of an on-camera short shotgun and wireless audio receiver, RGB shooting capability, easy addition of a breakout box for hardlined EFP applications, and yes, internal ND filters.

All of the above features define the definite mobile (and hardlined) EFP capabilities of Fixed Lens Scarlet.

Internal ND filters screams of prosumer? High-end professional EFP and ENG camera systems have used internal ND filter systems for decades now - and still do. Its true that basically all fixed lens prosumer camera systems also feature internal ND filter systems, but when that category of cameras was developed in the mid '90's they simply borrowed that very useful internal ND feature from the existing full sized, high-end 2/3" EFP/ENG camera systems.

A statement that an internal ND system "really screams prosumer" is in reality a statement that ignores the design history of professional EFP/ENG camera systems, ignores and denies the overall design features and EFP utility of Fixed Lens Scarlet, and/or in reality just screams of cine snobbery toward EFP camera features and uses.

A huge number of professionals, myself included, who will shoot mobile EFP style with the Fixed Lens Scarlet, will enjoy and utilize the internal ND filters, along with AF and auto-iris when shooting conditions call for it.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
And for anything else, there is always screw-on filters. Do a search for posts by Steve Gibby and you'll see that he uses them extensively in the kind of work he does. A matte box is not always necessary.
Click to expand...

Thanks Terry...

In three and one half years of using the four Red One cameras I purchased I've used a matte box on them on only a very few occasions. On Red One I've used 35mm still lenses and screw-on filters exclusively, except for those few times I used a matte box. I would have loved to have had internal ND on my Red One cameras. In fact, I'd love to have internal ND on my Epic cameras!

As you know, mobile EFP production calls for rig lightness, so cine style accessories like matte boxes and follow focus units simply don't cut it for mobile EFP production, and even some types of mobile cine style production.

Me and my crews carry pouches of screw-on ND and polarizer filters on out belts for use on Red One. We easily change them out in just a few seconds.

Horses for courses...
 
Built in ND filters are fine for a 2/3" camera (scarlet(or whatever the hell it is now), varicam, f-900) The chip is too big for it to be practical on a s35mm sized sensor.

NG
 
Actually putting internal ND filters in with a s35 sensor is definitely within the scope of present technology. That said, there simply hasn't been a big demand for internal ND because when you move into the s35 sensor world the perception by manufacturers is that digital cinema camera users either don't see the need for internal, or their peers would criticize them for using a camera with "video" technology. Thus s35 camera manufacturers cater to the matte box crowd.

In reality, the largest portion of the technology in a digital cinema s35 camera like RED One (and Epic) has been derived from EFP/ENG cameras, with a large part of technology also from DSLR cameras, and the least amount of technology from film cameras.

Will we see s35 (and FF35) camera systems with internal ND? Probably not in the real near future. But the EFP industry is the largest single portion of the motion media industry, and within the EFP industry, non-hardlined EFP (where internal ND has its most use) is the largest portion of that industry. An increasing number of EFP productions, both non-hardlined and hardlined, are now using s35 DC camera systems. I expect that cross-pollination, with its accompanying demand for internal ND in that style of shooting, will eventually push the addition of internal ND in s35 DC camera systems.

If someone shoots cine style and uses a matte box with a camera system that has internal ND capability, no problem, simply use your matte box and don't use the internal ND. But if someone shoots both cine style and EFP style, or always shoots EFP style with that same s35 DC camera, then having the internal ND when shooting EFP style is a great help.
 
Steve,

I can see the need for internal ND filters in ENG/EFP and documentary cameras. If the fixed-lens Scarlet will be used for that type of work, then they will certainly be a welcome addition. I will admit that I have next to zero experience with ENG shooting.

With that said, I have found the internal ND filters to be crude and of extremely poor quality in the cameras that I have owned. (Canon XL-1, Sony EX3). If there are excellent quality internal ND filters in higher quality ENG cameras, they are beyond my knowledge and I defer to your experience.

When you have an ND .9 and an ND 1.8 as your only two choices, they are really there to chop the exposure down in fast and furious situations.

For the work that we do, I like to control the exposure (and the depth of field) a stop at a time. I also like to cut that light with ND filters that won't contribute a color shift or a lack of clarity. It's simply a preference in the stuff that we shoot. If that makes me a "cine snob" I happily accept that moniker. :smile5:

Beyond that, I have produced one job where the internal ND was initiated outside by accident, and one where it was slightly triggered on set and it caused a minor edge vignette to a product shot. Both were the Sony EX3 and both jobs had professional ACs.

To each his own, but I'd just as soon skip the internal ND, and I doubt you will see it on the Epic.

However, I could be wrong ... and you might already know for sure. :smiley:
 
Peter,

I expect the internal ND on the Fixed Lens Scarlet to of first-rate quality - like the rest of the camera.

The internal ND on high-end EFP/ENG cameras is usually quite good.

I see mobile EFP shooters with the Fixed Lens Scarlet using a combination of the internal ND, augmented as needed with high-quality multi-coated screw-on filters too - ND and polarizer. A bulky and heavy matte box is really a liability in mobile EFP field production (and even for some mobile cine style shots) - thus the tendency toward internal and screw-on filters as needed.

I learned cine style shooting clear back in the '70's with film cameras. Even in my usual mobile EFP style of production with my Red One cameras, I control exposure and DOF completely via adding and removing screw-on filters (+ ISO adjustments). Manually controlling iris and DOF has been necessary with Red One - its a manual camera. But a camera like Fixed Lens Scarlet will have much more utilitarian value in mobile EFP than RED One has - and the internal ND, AF, auto iris are a reflection of that.

In those cases where your professional AC accidentally tripped an ND with the EX3, well what can I say - that's simply human error, not an inditement of having the technology integrated into the camera.

Absolutely, to each his (or her) own. With each production (or portion thereof) true professionals analyze which shooting style, camera, camera setup, accessories, and techniques to use to most efficiently and cost effectively acquire the needed images. There's no need to try and fit round pegs into square holes - the trick is to consistently match round pegs with round holes and square pegs with square holes.
 
As long as it's being discussed, another drawback to behind the lens filters is that you have to always have one in for the back focus to be correct. This means that when you don't want an ND filter, you have a clear filter. Not the end of the world except that in certain situations it can increase internal reflections, ghosting, and flares (think the weird stuff you see being reflected on the olpf). I think a nice compromise would be a gel filter slot similar to old SR's or Panavisions cameras. You can have quick and easy light small nd at a moments notice, no need for a matte box. Of course gel filters are not without their problems, but every thing is a bit of a compromise.

NG
 
Good points Nick...

The ability on the new removable lens Red cameras to quickly adjust the flange focal distance via the moveable sensor block, with easy repeatability of FFD when you change to different mount types should be really cool and quick.

I'm obviously not an engineer, but yes, if internal filters were integrated into a removable lens CMOS camera the OLPF, and/or an additional filter would probably be needed to handle internal reflections, flare, or ghosting. I believe that can be achieved on a removable lens CMOS camera - I guess we'll see.

I've used a lot of gel filters over the years - and I definitely agree with you that in certain situations they can cause problems.
 
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Steve.

In some situations, the mattebox can be a pain in the ass. There is a different camera ... or build ... for every job.

I was wrong to generalize, but I did preface with IMHO. :Angel_anim:

So ... are there internal NDs on Epic #00008?

Tell us dammit! :smilewinkgrin:
 
Its all good Peter...

Definitely internal ND capability on the Fixed Lens Scarlet, but I'll have to take a rain check on posting details about my Epic M-00008. Jim or Jarred will be putting up a dedicated Epic 008 thread in the Recon section sometime soon - and I'll give everyone a breakdown of my field use impressions, setup, features, etc.

No matter what someone's chosen style or styles of production, Epic is a killer camera. Fun times ahead...:)
 
Thanks for sharing on this site, Steve Gibby.

Your use of still-frame lenses on your Reds as a matter of preference instead of strictly finance opened my mind to other ways of operating.

Do have a base lens filter like a UV or skylight that you would keep on your lenses "permanently" in order to protect the threads on the lens from potential cross-threading and wear and tear from the constant addition and subtraction of other filters?

And is lens breathing ever an issue for you shooting with the still-frame lenses?
 
Amen Steve! Although I agree with the OP as well. However, I think the Scarlet Fixed is a suitable camera for any type of shoot and that is why I'm gonna go for it. I'll be able to use it for all the run-and-gun stuff I love shooting, and of course for fiction films.

Also, we only use still Nikon 35mm lenses on the Red and we've never had any noteworthy problems with breathing on our zooms. I will say that I have noticed softer (sharp images) when our zooms are open all the way to 2.8. Then again that's also because the DOF is so damn shallow!

Anyways, exciting times are among us!
 
Very cool. I know you can use screw on filters, but I like internal nd filters.
 
Steve your technical information is so bang on, it's great to hear all this from an EFP operator. Coming from the video world and spending the past twenty six years shooting EFP I can relate. I love RED...I am looking forward to the Scarlet fixed, because I see it working very well in EFP/ENG, as you know things need to go quick in that world and there most often is no time to slide ND into a mattebox so that ND wheel we are use to on a broadcast camera becomes your standard fix.
'On a side note, how do you think the 2/3" Fixed will be when it comes to DOF? Smaller sensor with a fixed lens should mean less DOF..?

Steve Kocsis
DP/Operator
www.digitallightproductions.com
 
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