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NatGeo WHALES Magenta/Green Issue Underwater - Have you seen this?

Michael Romano

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I just finished a 10 day shoot for National Geographic off the coast of Maui using a Phantom HD Gold and an EPIC underwater shooting humpback whales. This EPIC was in a GATES housing. As a side note, I'm impressed with the housing and would recommend it to others. Very solid.

That being said, we had a strange issue with the image coming from the EPIC. Below are before and after corrections done only in RCXPRO. We were not rigged for secondaries as I didn't have the ability to transcode on location so I had to have RMD files which would be good enough to get us through editorial. The post production team did not have extensive (any) experience in digital cinema as most of their jobs are shot on Sony F800 XDCAM systems.

THE PROBLEM:
Essentially, the water becomes magenta and the animals go a teal hue. The whales are actually all shades of black and grey and any color they represent is going to be a reflection of their surroundings. This is a proper pain to fix in primary CC because to correct the water, you remove magenta and the whales then become SUPER teal. The same works in reverse.

My DP, Paul Atkins, has told be he has seen this problem before with a *different* EPIC off the coast of Guadalupe in much cooler seas with great white sharks as the subject. I was unable to get a chance to review this footage but I'm told it looks identical.

Now I know things look odd underwater but this seems to be an abnormal image for a camera. We had a GoPro HERO3 getting the exact same action and it looks as you would expect in regards to underwater color.

We did not use any underwater specialty filtration in the front of the lens as some shots are captured at up to 100ft while others are at the very surface, all on the same dive.

I'll start by detailing the things we tried to fix the issue.

1 - Black Balance. We determined the median temperature of the camera when in the housing, rolling, underwater. In Hawaiian seawater, and with the Gates housing, its about 57º C. We calibrated at that temperature. No perceptible change in the image.

2 - IR contamination. It sure looks like it to me but I have found numerous sources that say IR cannot penetrate water. That seems to make sense as you loose most, if not all, red information the deeper you go. We mostly shoot near the surface, but dive down to get some shots. It seems as if it is evenly effecting the picture at any depth. If it is IR - I would think only the surface shots would be contaminated. I will be doing further testing down this path. Stay tuned for details.

3 - Color correction in RCXPRO. This saved us on this shoot. I think my before and after shots fix it up pretty well but it wouldn't be an easy fix for the uninitiated colorist. Not to mention, it is still a little funky. Not the proper solution.

4 - Although I didn't test it, a red filter for black & white film (At a lower density) might force the sensor to read red channel information. You would then just have an inverter LUT to correct it.

Any thoughts? I'm hoping someone else has come across this thing before!

***THESE PICTURES ARE HUGE***

Let them download and then compare on your desktop. I did TIFF grabs from RCXPRO and then used Photoshop to convert to JPEG @ 12 Quality (BASELINE)

A004_C006 - 01 BEFORE.jpg

A004_C006 - 01 AFTER.jpg

A004_C006 - 02 BEFORE.jpg

A004_C006 - 02 AFTER.jpg
 
The before images are set at 5600ºK and the afters are close to 10,000ºK. It doesn't really matter in the water as white balance is a metadata setting, post the RAW record stage.
 
not really a fix, but some questions.
Did you have a color temp meter capable of underwater use?

and would you consider a red filter after all?

What does you camera in housing do in a swimming pool? perhaps shooting a chart underwater might help?
 
The before images are set at 5600ºK and the afters are close to 10,000ºK. It doesn't really matter in the water as white balance is a metadata setting, post the RAW record stage.

Thatʻs what I used to do as well until I got burned on a few shoots with colors just like what I see in your images. Subsequent testing proved to me that shooting with a correct WB for the conditions gives a far superior result in post. Now, I always both set WB for the conditions and record a reference card to use later in post. Have you tried setting your tint as well as temp in RCX? Maybe use the eyedropper to pick out a white sample and use that temp/tint as a starting point. I usually end up with tint around -35 and temp ~15-20K in Hawaiian waters. Hope it helps, those are some sweet shots.
 
I have not much experience underwater, but this purples... if I were you would try a HotMirror.
 
and... AMAZING SHOOTS MEN!!!

(Sorry for double post, but I have to)
 
Thatʻs what I used to do as well until I got burned on a few shoots with colors just like what I see in your images. Subsequent testing proved to me that shooting with a correct WB for the conditions gives a far superior result in post. Now, I always both set WB for the conditions and record a reference card to use later in post. Have you tried setting your tint as well as temp in RCX? Maybe use the eyedropper to pick out a white sample and use that temp/tint as a starting point. I usually end up with tint around -35 and temp ~15-20K in Hawaiian waters. Hope it helps, those are some sweet shots.

I just checked the settings and the white balance is set to 30065ºK, tint is -20.930 (More Magenta). I went even further and dropped the red channel to 0.729 and green to 0.760. I also dialed the Lift Gamma Gain (Low, Mid, High) wheels slightly towards blue - All at individual numbers.

That's interesting you set your white balance in advance as it definitely doesn't make a difference on the final RAW image. Do you find it makes you expose differently based on what you see on the monitor? When you take footage that has been WB'ed in camera and reset the WB in RCX, does it suddenly appear funky again?

The reference card is of course required but unfortunately all I had was a white card. The numbers I got in these particular "after" images came from balancing on a solid white whale pectoral with the dropper. They appear as perfect white on the surface cameras and I have one in almost every shot! I think a Macbeth would have helped out much more in this environment but I don't have a waterproof card.

I'm going to do some tests with IR, RED filtrate and a Hotmirror with a waterproof Macbeth chart as various depths as soon as I get a chance to do so.

I appreciate the ideas and if you think of anything else, feel free to post it.
 
That's interesting you set your white balance in advance as it definitely doesn't make a difference on the final RAW image. Do you find it makes you expose differently based on what you see on the monitor? When you take footage that has been WB'ed in camera and reset the WB in RCX, does it suddenly appear funky again?...

...I'm going to do some tests with IR, RED filtrate and a Hotmirror with a waterproof Macbeth chart as various depths as soon as I get a chance to do so.

I appreciate the ideas and if you think of anything else, feel free to post it.

Glad the ideas are helping you get there :) I wish I was a color science expert to explain my process from a scientific perspective. All I can say is I have done the UW Macbeth Chart test you described, and found that the color channels are much easier to recover if the footage is shot with the WB set accurately. I discovered this by accident when I bumped my WB button and shot a days footage with WB set to a wildly inaccurate value. No amount of CC will recover this footage, thereʻs just insufficient information present, especially at depth. I have a theory that the demosaic is more accurate if the WB is in the ballpark, but like I said, Iʻm no expert. The only reason I also record the card is to have a concrete reference in post. Hereʻs a test dive I shot to test my process, no filter involved. The "before" is RG3 with WB set for the scene. The "after" is WB set to the card plus typical CC methods.
 
Glad the ideas are helping you get there :) I wish I was a color science expert to explain my process from a scientific perspective. All I can say is I have done the UW Macbeth Chart test you described, and found that the color channels are much easier to recover if the footage is shot with the WB set accurately. I discovered this by accident when I bumped my WB button and shot a days footage with WB set to a wildly inaccurate value. No amount of CC will recover this footage, thereʻs just insufficient information present, especially at depth. I have a theory that the demosaic is more accurate if the WB is in the ballpark, but like I said, Iʻm no expert. The only reason I also record the card is to have a concrete reference in post. Hereʻs a test dive I shot to test my process, no filter involved. The "before" is RG3 with WB set for the scene. The "after" is WB set to the card plus typical CC methods.

First of all, very nice images Jeff.

"I have a theory that the demosaic is more accurate if the WB is in the ballpark, but like I said, Iʻm no expert."

I think you are on to something there - I hate to say it but it seems to me that something must be lost in the "compressed raw" process.

Isn't the highest redcode compression setting supposed to be truly mathematically lossless (not just visually lossless - which for underwater shooting might not be quite true due to such non-standard lighting). If so, it would be interesting to shoot at the highest redcode setting to see if it responds significantly differently. Need to try that next time I'm out.

Also, have you tried saving your "normal" color correction settings to an incamera look?
 
perhaps you should find a colorist that works with red underwater. well, maybe they don't need an underwater lab, but that would be cool.

your shots looks great, but they could get greater pretty quickly :)
 
First of all, very nice images Jeff.

"I have a theory that the demosaic is more accurate if the WB is in the ballpark, but like I said, Iʻm no expert."

I think you are on to something there - I hate to say it but it seems to me that something must be lost in the "compressed raw" process.

Isn't the highest redcode compression setting supposed to be truly mathematically lossless (not just visually lossless - which for underwater shooting might not be quite true due to such non-standard lighting). If so, it would be interesting to shoot at the highest redcode setting to see if it responds significantly differently. Need to try that next time I'm out.

Also, have you tried saving your "normal" color correction settings to an incamera look?

Thanks a bunch Mike, thatʻs a nice complement coming from someone with your experience :) I donʻt use an UW look because it seems like thereʻs just too many variables to come up with something universally useful. Regarding the habit of setting the WB UW, Iʻve found that it definitely makes a difference, especially at depth. Also recording the card is just too helpful, it takes me 90% of the way there with one click. Iʻm currently working on a series of UW tests on this subject to share here on RU, but I want to be thorough before I post the results.
 
Michael,

Beautiful images!

There is no amount of colour corection that is going to make it look "right". While there is absolutely no IR there, there are some other interesting challenges when shooting in shallow water.

I'm happy to try grading the images from RAW, if you like to email me a sample r3d frame. The method is proprietary and works best if used with special filters (not ordinary blue water filter, like UR-Pro or similar), but can be applied to unfiltered footage too. You can't do this correction in RedCine, but it is possible with Photoshop or more powerful colour grading software.

Sorry to be a little bit vague here, but the method is an essential part of patent proceedings and is not public knowledge.

You can contact me by email at: pawel.achtel (at) 24x7.com.au
 
Michael,
The method is proprietary and works best if used with special filters (not ordinary blue water filter, like UR-Pro or similar), but can be applied to unfiltered footage too. You can't do this correction in RedCine, but it is possible with Photoshop or more powerful colour grading software.
Sorry to be a little bit vague here, but the method is an essential part of patent proceedings and is not public knowledge.

I appreciate the insight but I'm already up to my eyeballs in patented, proprietary technologies :)

The effect isn't the end of the world and we can clearly get the final result we're looking for with secondaries in Resolve, Baselight etc. What I was trying to do is make these shots look like every other camera shooting underwater right out of RCX without a bunch of screwing around.

I've attached a link to the single frame R3D's if anyone wants to give it a shot but please post it back here if you treat it *ONLY* in RCX as that's the real goal.

LEGAL - These images are **only** for use here on the REDuser community - Not for any other reason. I appreciate the understanding.

http://clients.strawberrycolor.com/REDuser/whales_R3D_w_RMD.zip
 
michael, you're really going to want to 'repair' the red channel - not sure i'd ever consider that secondaries (especially for underwater footage), but you can't do channel mixing in redcine. and before anybody - who will remain nameless - jumps in about what's 'right' - 'if it looks right', well...
 
Matt, I like your grade in post #17 and it is probably the best that I have seen coming from RCX.
 
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