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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

Graeme Nattress said:
IR has changed too. The changes are physical so although there could very well be new colour spaces and gamma options to reflect the increased dynamic range and colorimetry of the Dragon, they'll be coming along too.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Hi Graeme!

Are we talking about a new IR filter built in the new OLPF?
Better IR protection in the upgraded Dragon cameras (as promised) would be great!

Thanks for the hard work!
George


--
 
Is it confirmed that the Dragon update will remove HDRx as an option?

AndreasOberg said:
As I understand we are loosing the HDRx then?
I can understand it's trickiness but I really loved that feature. Useful for so many things. Can have a shorter shutter time for stills for example or doing extreme movements from inside to outside.
Also great for timelapses which I really enjoy doing on the Epic. Just enable hdrx and start and you got a nifty movie in mega quality.

Oh well if it's true it still sounds like a indredibilisious camera. Just pains a bit to upgrade and loose something you love. Fantastic job on everything else though of course!
Cheers
/Andreas
Click to expand...
 
I rely on HDRx for sharp stills. I would like to have it confirmed that we will have it as an option with Dragon.
 
Does anybody know whether to pay the full payment in advance? Or do you pay later when it's time to send in the camera? Anyone know?
 
Jarred Land said:
-EPIC-M owners can pre-order the upgrade for $9500

-EPIC-X non-early adopters can pre-order upgrade for $9500.-M cameras tomorrow in our booth.
Click to expand...

Has anyone looked passed the announcements of the upgrade to really see these ridiculous prices for what they are? On behalf of RED users that know basic math- congratulations RED on completely alienating your loyal fan base; offering a far worse deal to your current base owners then you’re now offering the general public of people that have been doubting the company for years. And let’s get a few misnomers out of the way, as they’re pretty annoying and get consistently regurgitated on this forum. People pointing out that RED is upgradeable unlike most of their competitors as some mystical great deed, so we should all be happy, is beyond silly. I think its great, except that’s the camera's benefit that’s been sold to us day one. Part of the price that we factored into the equation when we first purchased the camera. But with prices like 10k for a sensor upgrade— the upgrade costs more than double that what 4K camera companies like Black Magic are selling an entire camera package for. The upgradeable coolness of your RED camera loses it's shine with price upgrades hitting double what new cameras are now coming out at. Again, this was all factored into the price, and a decision we took (your loyal customers) in buying into a new company with no track record of making cameras. So please don’t say, well it’s something the other companies don’t offer. The only reason I bought the camera was because we were told the camera would be upgradeable in the future. who knew the true upgrade cost would be double the amount of the Scarlet itself? It's absurd.


Talk about greed gone wild. $9,500 to upgrade a sensor? On a Scarlet camera who’s entire body, including a cutting edge sensor a few yrs ago was the same price? Really? If that’s not insulting enough, any one of the hundreds of people that paid $19,000 for the RED Epic in the past 5 months, just lost 5k of value with their camera in one day (about 30% value wiped out!!). Try listing your Epic now, you’d get laughed at for a number anywhere above 11K. Yesterday it was worth 16k. With 24k buying you a brand new Epic Dragon- the real winners here are the people that never owned a RED camera before. And please don’t say 'but the guys who bought the RED Epic 5 months ago got 5 months of use before losing all that value'. That’s a ridiculous argument. You could’ve owned another camera in the same time period, using it just the same, and not lost your shirt because a greedy camera maker put getting new business in front of taking care of their existing client base that made it all possible.

Scarlet owners got screwed as well. It’s not by accident the company hasn’t released the new scarlet dragon price. That’s because it’s going to be significantly cheaper than if you owned a scarlet and paid for the upgrade. Worse than that, if you want the real Dragon sensor, the one that was originally promised both Scarlett and Epic owners- a Scarlet owner needs to shell out 19k on top of the 10.5k they recently paid. 19K!!. That’s over a 300% increase over last year’s estimate of 6k for a Scarlet Dragon upgrade. That’s why I bought into the camera. Do the math- that means your great reward for being a loyal Scarlet owner is a path to Epic Dragon which is 5K or 6k more than what a guy off the street would pay to buy into the same system. They also get a year warrant on a new camera, as opposed to 90 days on the sensor alone.


I want to congratulate everyone that never believed in RED, and scoffed at the idea that a no name American company could produce a great camera—and never shelled out a dime for a RED product. Your wait and your doubts have paid off. Go buy a RED Epic Dragon for 24k and you got yourself a better deal than any current owners. For current RED camera owners… well you got screwed.

It’s smart business for RED. They either charge more for the new RED Dragon cameras, and get less buyers, or offer upgrades for cheaper and get less revenues. Guess what? RED knows you’re not going to let all the peripherals you purchased around your RED go to waste. And for sure you’re not going to watch your friends buy into RED and laugh at you for having an outdated subpar camera that’s quickly losing all its value. No way. RED did their market research. They know just out of pride, most RED camera owners will put on a good face, and dig into their wallets and hope nobody rubs it in their face that they got hosed. Swallow your pride boys, I know I did. I just got laughed at from a bunch of my sony friends that always told me I should’ve waited, like they did, before buying into RED.

I got decent use of the Scarlet- but having took all the risk of buying into a relatively new camera company- our reward should’ve been a fair, modest price for a sensor upgrade. And 25% cheaper then what a new RED camera buyer would get for the same camera- not 35% more. And sadly, it didn’t have to be much less then what was offered to be fair. The Scarlet upgrade price to the limited Dragon should’ve been 6.5k, with an upgrade to the new epic dragon for 13k (not 9.5k / 19k).

And the epic dragon upgrade should’ve been 6k, period. RED had it right 6 months ago, but they let greed for new business come at the expense of the customers that made it possible for them.


Finally, RED's commitment to allow Scarlet owners the ability to turn in their paid value for the Scarlet into an Epic Dragon, is also a sham. That means that RED Scarlet owners that paid 10,5k for the brain, should be able to upgrade to the RED Epic Dragon for 24k - 10.5K = 13.5k. Instead it's 19k to do a true upgrade.

I may or may not upgrade the Scarlet. Sucks. It's now lost all it's resale value unless i pay double what i originally paid for it. Dell sells the same laptop two year later, with a better processor at the same price. For the price of the upgrade, RED should be selling us a brand new camera with the new sensor. And the old camera should be upgradeable for a few thousand dollars- not 19K. You pay 19k you still only have one camera. I hope RED users, start getting angry and cancel upgrading their RED. Wait a year, there's other camera companies that aren't looking to gouge you, just because they have the best sensor.

Looking for a new camera company to get behind. RED has totally lost me here with their greed. RED should've been looking to upgrade their sensors every 3 years, at a nominal price- they would've had me for life. Instead it just looks like a quick money grab, for as much as they can, assuming they know their not going to lead past 2015 when every camera is shooting 100 fps at 5k.

SD
 
steve duncan said:
Has anyone looked passed the announcements of the upgrade to really see these ridiculous prices for what they are? On behalf of RED users that know basic math- congratulations RED on completely alienating your loyal fan base; offering a far worse deal to your current base owners then you’re now offering the general public of people that have been doubting the company for years. And let’s get a few misnomers out of the way, as they’re pretty annoying and get consistently regurgitated on this forum. People pointing out that RED is upgradeable unlike most of their competitors as some mystical great deed, so we should all be happy, is beyond silly. I think its great, except that’s the camera's benefit that’s been sold to us day one. Part of the price that we factored into the equation when we first purchased the camera. But with prices like 10k for a sensor upgrade— the upgrade costs more than double that what 4K camera companies like Black Magic are selling an entire camera package for. The upgradeable coolness of your RED camera loses it's shine with price upgrades hitting double what new cameras are now coming out at. Again, this was all factored into the price, and a decision we took (your loyal customers) in buying into a new company with no track record of making cameras. So please don’t say, well it’s something the other companies don’t offer. The only reason I bought the camera was because we were told the camera would be upgradeable in the future. who knew the true upgrade cost would be double the amount of the Scarlet itself? It's absurd.


Talk about greed gone wild. $9,500 to upgrade a sensor? On a Scarlet camera who’s entire body, including a cutting edge sensor a few yrs ago was the same price? Really? If that’s not insulting enough, any one of the hundreds of people that paid $19,000 for the RED Epic in the past 5 months, just lost 5k of value with their camera in one day (about 30% value wiped out!!). Try listing your Epic now, you’d get laughed at for a number anywhere above 11K. Yesterday it was worth 16k. With 24k buying you a brand new Epic Dragon- the real winners here are the people that never owned a RED camera before. And please don’t say 'but the guys who bought the RED Epic 5 months ago got 5 months of use before losing all that value'. That’s a ridiculous argument. You could’ve owned another camera in the same time period, using it just the same, and not lost your shirt because a greedy camera maker put getting new business in front of taking care of their existing client base that made it all possible.

Scarlet owners got screwed as well. It’s not by accident the company hasn’t released the new scarlet dragon price. That’s because it’s going to be significantly cheaper than if you owned a scarlet and paid for the upgrade. Worse than that, if you want the real Dragon sensor, the one that was originally promised both Scarlett and Epic owners- a Scarlet owner needs to shell out 19k on top of the 10.5k they recently paid. 19K!!. That’s over a 300% increase over last year’s estimate of 6k for a Scarlet Dragon upgrade. That’s why I bought into the camera. Do the math- that means your great reward for being a loyal Scarlet owner is a path to Epic Dragon which is 5K or 6k more than what a guy off the street would pay to buy into the same system. They also get a year warrant on a new camera, as opposed to 90 days on the sensor alone.


I want to congratulate everyone that never believed in RED, and scoffed at the idea that a no name American company could produce a great camera—and never shelled out a dime for a RED product. Your wait and your doubts have paid off. Go buy a RED Epic Dragon for 24k and you got yourself a better deal than any current owners. For current RED camera owners… well you got screwed.

It’s smart business for RED. They either charge more for the new RED Dragon cameras, and get less buyers, or offer upgrades for cheaper and get less revenues. Guess what? RED knows you’re not going to let all the peripherals you purchased around your RED go to waste. And for sure you’re not going to watch your friends buy into RED and laugh at you for having an outdated subpar camera that’s quickly losing all its value. No way. RED did their market research. They know just out of pride, most RED camera owners will put on a good face, and dig into their wallets and hope nobody rubs it in their face that they got hosed. Swallow your pride boys, I know I did. I just got laughed at from a bunch of my sony friends that always told me I should’ve waited, like they did, before buying into RED.

I got decent use of the Scarlet- but having took all the risk of buying into a relatively new camera company- our reward should’ve been a fair, modest price for a sensor upgrade. And 25% cheaper then what a new RED camera buyer would get for the same camera- not 35% more. And sadly, it didn’t have to be much less then what was offered to be fair. The Scarlet upgrade price to the limited Dragon should’ve been 6.5k, with an upgrade to the new epic dragon for 13k (not 9.5k / 19k).

And the epic dragon upgrade should’ve been 6k, period. RED had it right 6 months ago, but they let greed for new business come at the expense of the customers that made it possible for them.


Finally, RED's commitment to allow Scarlet owners the ability to turn in their paid value for the Scarlet into an Epic Dragon, is also a sham. That means that RED Scarlet owners that paid 10,5k for the brain, should be able to upgrade to the RED Epic Dragon for 24k - 10.5K = 13.5k. Instead it's 19k to do a true upgrade.

I may or may not upgrade the Scarlet. Sucks. It's now lost all it's resale value unless i pay double what i originally paid for it. Dell sells the same laptop two year later, with a better processor at the same price. For the price of the upgrade, RED should be selling us a brand new camera with the new sensor. And the old camera should be upgradeable for a few thousand dollars- not 19K. You pay 19k you still only have one camera. I hope RED users, start getting angry and cancel upgrading their RED. Wait a year, there's other camera companies that aren't looking to gouge you, just because they have the best sensor.

Looking for a new camera company to get behind. RED has totally lost me here with their greed. RED should've been looking to upgrade their sensors every 3 years, at a nominal price- they would've had me for life. Instead it just looks like a quick money grab, for as much as they can, assuming they know their not going to lead past 2015 when every camera is shooting 100 fps at 5k.

SD
Click to expand...
Steve, I'm not going to deny anything you said above because I know it is all true to you. And I admit being a little dismayed when I saw the sticker price on the sensor upgrade and even more dismay when I read that it is only warranted for 90 days. As I've followed the NAB threads I've come to understand that this sensor has been a huge undertaking to bring it to readiness (New ASIC etc.) so I've swallowed, cleared my throat, and got in line for an upgrade.

But I think I am more accepting of the upgrade program and cost because I am not focusing on what others may be getting later and whether or not they are getting a better deal. I am focusing on what MY camera will be able to do once the upgrade is in place. I had intended to do both cameras at once but with the new pricing I am only going to do one, so yeah, I'm having to change plans. But I will upgrade the second camera later on, probably about the time the new $24,000 Epics are available.

Still, I won't compare my cameras to those new ones going out the door. I will just be thankful that I was able to shoot with one camera for however long before that happens with arguably the best damn camera period.
 
Any idea when the Epic-X Dragon will be available for pre-order from Red.com? Probably thursday?
 
Elsie N said:
Steve, I'm not going to deny anything you said above because I know it is all true to you. And I admit being a little dismayed when I saw the sticker price on the sensor upgrade and even more dismay when I read that it is only warranted for 90 days. As I've followed the NAB threads I've come to understand that this sensor has been a huge undertaking to bring it to readiness (New ASIC etc.) so I've swallowed, cleared my throat, and got in line for an upgrade.

But I think I am more accepting of the upgrade program and cost because I am not focusing on what others may be getting later and whether or not they are getting a better deal. I am focusing on what MY camera will be able to do once the upgrade is in place. I had intended to do both cameras at once but with the new pricing I am only going to do one, so yeah, I'm having to change plans. But I will upgrade the second camera later on, probably about the time the new $24,000 Epics are available.

Still, I won't compare my cameras to those new ones going out the door. I will just be thankful that I was able to shoot with one camera for however long before that happens with arguably the best damn camera period.
Click to expand...

I think maybe you shouldn't upgrade either one. I went from pride swallowing to anger at these prices. Upgrades shouldn't cost 100% more than the original product. That's not an upgrade, that's just buying a new camera. IF Sony comes out in 2013 with a great 4K camera for 12K.... and two years later they release the same model with a new sensor for 14k-- you would buy it, and than own two cameras. What sane company would charge you the same cost as a new camera, just to upgrade one part? It's beyond insane.

I'm hoping everyone comes to their senses when the hype dies down, and does the smart thing-- tell RED they've overpriced themselves, and make them come down to what an upgrade should be-- 50% or 60% of the original cost-- 5k or 6k. sorry to disagree-- R&D costs of a new sensor is not more than the R&D of the entire camera including sensor in 2011 which was selling for 10.5K. It's beyond absurd. A new scarlet dragon should cost 17K, and the upgrade price should 5K. 2K less then what a new RED customer pays, not 3k more. A Dragon Epic should be 6k to upgrade as well.

And the utter arrogance to charge these prices, without even offering their customers a glimpse of what the sensor can do. All RED has really done, is slashed the values of the current RED cameras, by giving new customers a much better deal.

Epics value in one week went from 16K to 11k. And Scarlet values went from 8.5K to 5k. All because of RED's greed to grab new market share, at your expense! All for a sensor nobody has even seen yet. Greedy and arrogance all rolled up in this silly ploy to force owners to upgrade or lose the value of their camera. One way to push back... Don't buy it. Wait a year. With what Sony and Black Magic have in store for 2014-- don't let RED coral you into thinking you need to spend this money.
 
steve duncan said:
Has anyone looked passed the announcements of the upgrade to really see these ridiculous prices for what they are? On behalf of RED users that know basic math- congratulations RED on completely alienating your loyal fan base; offering a far worse deal to your current base owners then you’re now offering the general public of people that have been doubting the company for years. And let’s get a few misnomers out of the way, as they’re pretty annoying and get consistently regurgitated on this forum. People pointing out that RED is upgradeable unlike most of their competitors as some mystical great deed, so we should all be happy, is beyond silly. I think its great, except that’s the camera's benefit that’s been sold to us day one. Part of the price that we factored into the equation when we first purchased the camera. But with prices like 10k for a sensor upgrade— the upgrade costs more than double that what 4K camera companies like Black Magic are selling an entire camera package for. The upgradeable coolness of your RED camera loses it's shine with price upgrades hitting double what new cameras are now coming out at. Again, this was all factored into the price, and a decision we took (your loyal customers) in buying into a new company with no track record of making cameras. So please don’t say, well it’s something the other companies don’t offer. The only reason I bought the camera was because we were told the camera would be upgradeable in the future. who knew the true upgrade cost would be double the amount of the Scarlet itself? It's absurd.


Talk about greed gone wild. $9,500 to upgrade a sensor? On a Scarlet camera who’s entire body, including a cutting edge sensor a few yrs ago was the same price? Really? If that’s not insulting enough, any one of the hundreds of people that paid $19,000 for the RED Epic in the past 5 months, just lost 5k of value with their camera in one day (about 30% value wiped out!!). Try listing your Epic now, you’d get laughed at for a number anywhere above 11K. Yesterday it was worth 16k. With 24k buying you a brand new Epic Dragon- the real winners here are the people that never owned a RED camera before. And please don’t say 'but the guys who bought the RED Epic 5 months ago got 5 months of use before losing all that value'. That’s a ridiculous argument. You could’ve owned another camera in the same time period, using it just the same, and not lost your shirt because a greedy camera maker put getting new business in front of taking care of their existing client base that made it all possible.

Scarlet owners got screwed as well. It’s not by accident the company hasn’t released the new scarlet dragon price. That’s because it’s going to be significantly cheaper than if you owned a scarlet and paid for the upgrade. Worse than that, if you want the real Dragon sensor, the one that was originally promised both Scarlett and Epic owners- a Scarlet owner needs to shell out 19k on top of the 10.5k they recently paid. 19K!!. That’s over a 300% increase over last year’s estimate of 6k for a Scarlet Dragon upgrade. That’s why I bought into the camera. Do the math- that means your great reward for being a loyal Scarlet owner is a path to Epic Dragon which is 5K or 6k more than what a guy off the street would pay to buy into the same system. They also get a year warrant on a new camera, as opposed to 90 days on the sensor alone.


I want to congratulate everyone that never believed in RED, and scoffed at the idea that a no name American company could produce a great camera—and never shelled out a dime for a RED product. Your wait and your doubts have paid off. Go buy a RED Epic Dragon for 24k and you got yourself a better deal than any current owners. For current RED camera owners… well you got screwed.

It’s smart business for RED. They either charge more for the new RED Dragon cameras, and get less buyers, or offer upgrades for cheaper and get less revenues. Guess what? RED knows you’re not going to let all the peripherals you purchased around your RED go to waste. And for sure you’re not going to watch your friends buy into RED and laugh at you for having an outdated subpar camera that’s quickly losing all its value. No way. RED did their market research. They know just out of pride, most RED camera owners will put on a good face, and dig into their wallets and hope nobody rubs it in their face that they got hosed. Swallow your pride boys, I know I did. I just got laughed at from a bunch of my sony friends that always told me I should’ve waited, like they did, before buying into RED.

I got decent use of the Scarlet- but having took all the risk of buying into a relatively new camera company- our reward should’ve been a fair, modest price for a sensor upgrade. And 25% cheaper then what a new RED camera buyer would get for the same camera- not 35% more. And sadly, it didn’t have to be much less then what was offered to be fair. The Scarlet upgrade price to the limited Dragon should’ve been 6.5k, with an upgrade to the new epic dragon for 13k (not 9.5k / 19k).

And the epic dragon upgrade should’ve been 6k, period. RED had it right 6 months ago, but they let greed for new business come at the expense of the customers that made it possible for them.


Finally, RED's commitment to allow Scarlet owners the ability to turn in their paid value for the Scarlet into an Epic Dragon, is also a sham. That means that RED Scarlet owners that paid 10,5k for the brain, should be able to upgrade to the RED Epic Dragon for 24k - 10.5K = 13.5k. Instead it's 19k to do a true upgrade.

I may or may not upgrade the Scarlet. Sucks. It's now lost all it's resale value unless i pay double what i originally paid for it. Dell sells the same laptop two year later, with a better processor at the same price. For the price of the upgrade, RED should be selling us a brand new camera with the new sensor. And the old camera should be upgradeable for a few thousand dollars- not 19K. You pay 19k you still only have one camera. I hope RED users, start getting angry and cancel upgrading their RED. Wait a year, there's other camera companies that aren't looking to gouge you, just because they have the best sensor.

Looking for a new camera company to get behind. RED has totally lost me here with their greed. RED should've been looking to upgrade their sensors every 3 years, at a nominal price- they would've had me for life. Instead it just looks like a quick money grab, for as much as they can, assuming they know their not going to lead past 2015 when every camera is shooting 100 fps at 5k.

SD
Click to expand...


Steve, your math is wrong.

Who bough a Scarlet brain for 10.5K? No one, you're adding the price of the Side SSD and the mount into that. That takes off another 3.5K.
Not to mention, I have to say, upgrading my Scarlet to an Epic is a really damn good deal.

I can understand frustration but I think you're blowing it a little out of proportion saying that they're getting greedy and all that.
Also I don't thing you can compare this upgrade to two black magic cameras.
We're not talking about 4K anymore it's 6K, this sensor put your camera a couple years ahead of black magic with either option.

Not to mention all of Black Magic cameras are severely lacking in features.
I mean if all you care about is having the number 4 followed by a "K" then it doesn't make a difference to you but Black Magic doesn't have the full package.
Especially in the (but not limited to) framerates department.

Look at it this way, you could either buy a brand new Epic Dragon for 24K or get one for 19K. That's a damn good deal and I'll be taking it.

Sorry but where is the greed in that?
 
steve duncan said:
I think maybe you shouldn't upgrade either one. I went from pride swallowing to anger at these prices. Upgrades shouldn't cost 100% more than the original product. That's not an upgrade, that's just buying a new camera. IF Sony comes out in 2013 with a great 4K camera for 12K.... and two years later they release the same model with a new sensor for 14k-- you would buy it, and than own two cameras. What sane company would charge you the same cost as a new camera, just to upgrade one

I'm hoping everyone comes to their senses when the hype dies down, and does the smart thing-- tell RED they've overpriced themselves, and make them come down to what an upgrade should be-- 50% or 60% of the original cost-- 5k or 6k. sorry to disagree-- R&D costs of a new sensor is not more than the R&D of the entire camera including sensor in 2011 which was selling for 10.5K. It's beyond absurd. A new scarlet dragon should cost 17K, and the upgrade price should 5K. 2K less then what a new RED customer pays, not 3k more. A Dragon Epic should be 6k to upgrade as well.

And the utter arrogance to charge these prices, without even offering their customers a glimpse of what the sensor can do. All RED has really done, is slashed the values of the current RED cameras, by giving new customers a much better deal.

Epics value in one week went from 16K to 11k. And Scarlet values went from 8.5K to 5k. All because of RED's greed to grab new market share, at your expense! All for a sensor nobody has even seen yet. Greedy and arrogance all rolled up in this silly ploy to force owners to upgrade or lose the value of their camera. One way to push back... Don't buy it. Wait a year. With what Sony and Black Magic have in store for 2014-- don't let RED coral you into thinking you need to spend this money.
Click to expand...

Dude slow your horses!!

Do you even know the value of 16 stops at 6k resolution?
The next camera up is the f65 8k sensor 14 stops. For $70k

As fars as I'm concerned the scarlet is EOL, you should just buy a dragon for 24k and keep your scarlet as a second
 
shashbugu said:
Dude slow your horses!!

Do you even know the value of 16 stops at 6k resolution?
The next camera up is the f65 8k sensor 14 stops. For $70k

As fars as I'm concerned the scarlet is EOL, you should just buy a dragon for 24k and keep your scarlet as a second
Click to expand...


+1 Just saying
 
Nik Harper said:
Steve, your math is wrong.

Who bough a Scarlet brain for 10.5K? No one, you're adding the price of the Side SSD and the mount into that. That takes off another 3.5K.
Not to mention, I have to say, upgrading my Scarlet to an Epic is a really damn good deal.

I can understand frustration but I think you're blowing it a little out of proportion saying that they're getting greedy and all that.
Also I don't thing you can compare this upgrade to two black magic cameras.
We're not talking about 4K anymore it's 6K, this sensor put your camera a couple years ahead of black magic with either option.

Not to mention all of Black Magic cameras are severely lacking in features.
I mean if all you care about is having the number 4 followed by a "K" then it doesn't make a difference to you but Black Magic doesn't have the full package.
Especially in the (but not limited to) framerates department.

Look at it this way, you could either buy a brand new Epic Dragon for 24K or get one for 19K. That's a damn good deal and I'll be taking it.

Sorry but where is the greed in that?
Click to expand...

Your math is just as wrong as his. Keep your scarlet and get a red dragon for 24k, that's the real value.
 
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