NAB new announcements...

[Rob Ruffo]

LOL 10 years. :smilielol5:

Technology trends do not move in a linear fashion. Technology is exponential, which is why it took 50 years for full adoption of landline telephones and less than 10 years for cell phones.

Agreed, albeit Moores Law is slowing due to a variety of braking mechanisms, including heat dissipation and other limits related to physics, and reaching "good enough" thresholds for common mass-consumer needs and desires. There is much less difference between a computer now and 3 years ago than a computer 3 years ago and 6.

As to:

Originally Posted by Mike P.

He could mean the people he sells to (broadcasters), not the people in the market for a new camera. In which case, he's right; no broadcaster pays more for 4k/5k over 1080p (currently)... and 4k broadcast is not 12months away, but more like 5-10years(assuming it takes as long as HD did... Actually no one even broadcasts in 1080p yet... only 1080i.) Not sure how important re-releases 5-10 years down the line is on stuff like that either."

1080i, if shot/mastered in progressive (which all cinema and modern TV is except for some no-budget non-fiction) when de-interlaced by any reasonable recent HDTV, has its fields sewn back together into progressive frames for display. I.e. it looks exactly like 1080p30 (U.S.) 1080p25 (Europe) and 1080p 24 in 3:2 pulldown. The only advantage 1080p could have is if your TV can properly display "true 24" non-pulldown it could send a 24p signal and you would no longer have pull-down judder. Few HDTVs can properly display 24p as 24fps, so few people would even see this very subtle difference. If 1080i looks any different from 1080p it's because your TV has a poor de-interlacer. This has not been a problem for many years for any mainstream brand display.

It is impossible to display interlaced as interlaced on a natively progressive display. Only CRTs and two rare models of Hitachi plasmas can actually display interlaced content without de-interlacing to progressive first.

 

[Mike P.]

Why not? I have Verizon fiber running into my house and with a codec like REDRAY I could easily watch 4K content. Filed-based downloads will likely be a major delivery vehicle for 4K as well.

I was under the impression that adoption rate (by both ISPs and users) of fibre was fairly slow/low compared to traditional broadband (DSL, cable, etc.) In fact, I thought verizon was stopping expansion of their fibre infrastructure because it wasn't giving good enough subscription numbers. REDray is 25mbit/s, so it's definitely possible, but is that even out yet? Is it going to be free or will it need to be licensed or require RED-proprietary hardware? REDray is a proprietary codec owned solely by RED, right? No consortium or SIG making it an industry wide standard... So that means a more open 4k distributable codec would have to be developed too... just adds more time. Not saying it can't be done (I want it), I just wouldn't bet the farm or laugh at someone who thinks it's going to take 5-10 years.

Personally, I'm honestly concerned '4k in the home' has a high potential to end up like 3D in the consumers' eyes... If it gets pushed on consumers too fast (which it looks like it's on track to do) the average user is really going to question buying into the tech when "8k TVs are probably just around the corner". It will take a 4k $800 Apple iPanel/TV type thing to get wide spread adoption (via web, not traditional broadcast, mind you, which still gives credence to my expectations for timeline)... And that probably won't happen because Apple has a tendency to make insanely iterative tech, rather than offering what people want right out of the gate (in the same way that Canon/Sony are getting into 4k... kind of haphazardly in order to maximize the amount of sales with each 12-month hardware refresh.)

We'll have a better idea after NAB, but right now there are so many variables that I wouldn't bet money on it in either way.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I was under the impression that adoption rate (by both ISPs and users) of fibre was fairly slow/low compared to traditional broadband (DSL, cable, etc.) In fact, I thought verizon was stopping expansion of their fibre infrastructure because it wasn't giving good enough subscription numbers. REDray is 25mbit/s, so it's definitely possible, but is that even out yet? Is it going to be free or will it need to be licensed or require RED-proprietary hardware? REDray is a proprietary codec owned solely by RED, right? No consortium or SIG making it an industry wide standard... So that means a more open 4k distributable codec would have to be developed too... just adds more time. Not saying it can't be done (I want it), I just wouldn't bet the farm or laugh at someone who thinks it's going to take 5-10 years.

Personally, I'm honestly concerned '4k in the home' has a high potential to end up like 3D in the consumers' eyes... If it gets pushed on consumers too fast (which it looks like it's on track to do) the average user is really going to question buying into the tech when "8k TVs are probably just around the corner". It will take a 4k $800 Apple iPanel/TV type thing to get wide spread adoption (via web, not traditional broadcast, mind you, which still gives credence to my expectations for timeline)... And that probably won't happen because Apple has a tendency to make insanely iterative tech, rather than offering what people want right out of the gate (in the same way that Canon/Sony are getting into 4k... kind of haphazardly in order to maximize the amount of sales with each 12-month hardware refresh.)

We'll have a better idea after NAB, but right now there are so many variables that I wouldn't bet money on it in either way.

But 3D is now very common for new TVs as a feature. Gamers use it a lot. Our grading monitor happens to be 3D. Whatever 3D blu-rays I can get my hands on I eagerly watch. It really is fun. And 4K won't require the hassle/expense of putting on glasses and keeping them charged, will have no side-effects (headaches for some, danger to small children, etc.) so might be an easier ride, more readily embraced at it will feel seamless and effortless - just feed 4K and watch.

 

[William Sorensen]

This may not be thread-worthy... but I can't help note, as a very early RED & EPIC adopter, how Jim not only invented a new technological standard, but initiated a way of marketing that delivered, much like JFK's realized prediction that NASA would get humans to the moon, an entirely self-imposed challenge. The Russians are just catching up. This year's NAB will reveal Jim's plan for the rest of the solar system. Vision, truth and guts beat spin any day! I feel lucky and, in a little way, proud to be part of Jim's expanding universe.

 

[Paul Ellington]

I think he meant the community of Kelowna, BC, Canada.

Yes, I should have been more specific... Kelowna, which is mostly not mixed at all gave us all kinds of looks as we tried to have a BBQ. REDUser community is awesome. Kelowna is awesome, Big White, Silver Star... Awesome place, loads of money so I don't know why Scarlets wouldn't be used there. A RED Satellite store would do quite well... Would Jim ever allow a Franchise partly owned by Jim and a Canadian Owner.

 

[Elliott S Frank]

Hey, c'mon, I said 5-10. And I was referring to the re-releases of shows... Plus, everyone that just upgraded to HDtvs and/or 3Dtvs are not going to be as likely to get 4k sets in at least 2.5years (plus they won't be on sale in real quantity until 2013 and prices won't be affordable until 2014)... so that's already half the time. Similarly, I can't imagine broadcasters (still only at 1080i) stepping up to 4k in less than 5years... At the very least, 2013 seasons are already for the most part being shot (and in 1080), so we're already into 2014 before the majority of shows start shooting 4k, much less broadcasting them... Who knows, maybe NAB will show some sweet 4k broadcast magic that we haven't seen yet, but I'm not holding my breath. 4k in theatres and even in home theatre is one thing; 4k broadcast isn't even realistically possible yet... So that leaves streaming as the only viable way to get 4k into homes (which I don't consider broadcast) and that essentially means Netflix and AppleTV... I dunno... 5-10 years seems about right. Took 10 years for HD and that's still 1080i.. ~5 years for 4k and that'll just be subscription stuff.

The original RedRay prototype (2010) displayed 4K using a 10 Mb datarate. The improved RedRay (2011) moved the datarate to 15 Mb (and probably dropped the encoding complexity by an order of magnitude). We may see on Monday what another year in the lab has done for Jim's prototype. H.264/AVC defines a profile for 4K. Given that a (US) broadcast channel is ~19 Mb, the hard part of the infrastucture is already out there. All it takes is a Mark Cuban (or a Jim Jannard) with the inspiration and some talented cameramen to show that seeing the seams on the baseball as the batter sees them lets you see the old game in whole new way.

The OTA broadcasters had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the digital milleneum: if SD TV was good enough to show the Brooklyn Dodgers and the 1956 Democratic Convention (where John Kennedy didn't win the nomination), it should have been good enough for the 2012 Olympics and the 2012 Republican Convention. FIOS and U-Verse (Fibre-to-the-home infrastructure) are now technologies looking for a differentiator: 4K may well be the differentiator.

Consumers are already replacing their HDTV's on a 2.5 year cycle: this year's 240 Hz refresh and LED backlighting improve the picture enough over 60 Hz and cold-cathode fluorescents to make an upgrade worthwhile.

In 2006, 4K (at any price) was a scam. in 2012 a 4K handycam (GY-HMQ10U) that records to SDXC cards that you can buy at Best Buy is $5000.

 

[paulherrin]

the red system is a long term investment, and it pays off. it's as simple as that. invest in the workflow, it's solid. maybe you will have some headaches with clients that don't need/want that quality. maybe you will have to use an external recorder for some shoots. but your freed from the guessing game with other companies. there's a bunch of other cameras being announced and upcoming (as always), but guess what? i don't care! i've got my red camera... i only deal with them. of course, it's fine if you choose something else, i don't care! i've got my red camera... and that's all that matters. if you don't see the wisdom in the investment, you probably wouldn't know what to do with it anyways. i'd save your money on the c300 and just go with a dslr... it's the same * thing, really. not for me.

besides all that, did i mention that red makes THE best cameras that exist? my cameras already relatively better than when i bought it... the c300 - worse.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

Yes, I should have been more specific... Kelowna, which is mostly not mixed at all gave us all kinds of looks as we tried to have a BBQ. REDUser community is awesome. Kelowna is awesome, Big White, Silver Star... Awesome place, loads of money so I don't know why Scarlets wouldn't be used there. A RED Satellite store would do quite well... Would Jim ever allow a Franchise partly owned by Jim and a Canadian Owner.

You probably didn't spend enough time here - or didn't work here. There is a lot of money per capita but it's money made elsewhere (Alberta and US) and spent elsewhere. There is little industry here and one local news tv station that produces their own commercials for peanuts. And I mean literally you can get a 30 second spot for $500. It's shot by their news crew on a slow news day. Paul, you have no idea what you are talking about - sorry I have to be this straight forward with you. I have lived here for 10 years and I know my market - trust me. A Red satellite store would sell absolutely nothing here. Nil! Last I heard the one guy with R1 moved to Alberta because there was no business here for him. One other company that has a R1 hasn't used it for years. Talk to the Film Commissioner - they work hard all the time to get the odd movie here, and virtually every single one over the last 10 years brought not only all their own gear but also all keys and many more crews from wherever they came from because all we have here in terms of infrastructure is extras and low-end crew. I could go on and on but I don't mean to bore everyone else here. But to you Paul Ellington, please, stop writing about stuff you have no idea about!

 

[Dmitry Burenok]

Some places good for filming, some places - for mining, it depends... Here in Vancouver we doing quite well for last several years. Ironically most of your clients from US, California to be precise ))

 

[Jiri Bakala]

Some places good for filming, some places - for mining, it depends... Here in Vancouver we doing quite well for last several years. Ironically most of your clients from US, California to be precise ))

Exactly. Most of our clients are from Toronto, Calgary or US as well.

 

[Lee Saxon]

There is much less difference between a computer now and 3 years ago than a computer 3 years ago and 6.

Definitely true. Remember how often you needed a new computer in the mid-90s? Now I feel comfortable skipping a few generations. When I bought a GTX 470 last year, it was to replace a 7800 GTX from about '04.

I think things are slowing down a little with image sensor tech. I placed an order for a D2x to replace my D1x the INSTANT B&H started taking them. But I'll be comfortable waiting for supply to catch up with demand and first-adopter prices to drop a bit before I replace my D700 with a D4.

Still haven't reached that point where I'll skip a generation, though.

 

[davidtorres]

Always learning in my profession as cinematographer but now with Red this process is almost magic, I enjoy a lot the art to tell true the images .... Here in Las Vegas Redy to the action at 5k at 3:1 ( or perhaps bigger tonigh, will see )

 

[Ryan Fitzgerald]

By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Just a tad racist, don't you think? You really think that all Afro-Americans and Mexicans can't afford to purchase a RED camera? I mean, its 2012. I wasn't aware that people still thought like this. Maybe you should focus on leaning about human equality before you start worrying about technological equality in filmmaking? I'm sorry to add to your roast that's going on here but, I mean, WOW.

 

[Felipe Leite]

Some places good for filming, some places - for mining, it depends... Here in Vancouver we doing quite well for last several years. Ironically most of your clients from US, California to be precise ))

Yeah, I was there in 2010 for a TV spot, Jeff Cronenweth was the DP. It was great to be there with him and his brother. I also took my bike to Vancouver and went for a bike ride at. Mt. Seymour. What a great city.

 

[Adrian Lopez]

I think there are enough bad things shot in 4K now. It's about time that camera makers release affordable 4K cameras so we'll be able to more interesting things, made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs. By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Wow.. really??!! Afro-Americans, Mexicans who cant afford the gear? I had to re-read that post a few times....

 

[Trevor Meeks]

Just a tad racist, don't you think? You really think that all Afro-Americans and Mexicans can't afford to purchase a RED camera? I mean, its 2012. I wasn't aware that people still thought like this. Maybe you should focus on leaning about human equality before you start worrying about technological equality in filmmaking? I'm sorry to add to your roast that's going on here but, I mean, WOW.

Wow.. really??!! Afro-Americans, Mexicans who cant afford the gear? I had to re-read that post a few times....

Well, I suppose we could point out that she's french... go figure.

 

[paulherrin]

No, that's not what I really meant, but if you like to film your dogs, that's fine with me, as long as you don't want me to watch. The problem isn't all those people making money shooting shit work like music videos, commercials, specs, wedding tuff, etc... It's a living, I respect that, there aren't a lot of interesting artists on Reduser anyway. The problem is more with the fact that it pollutes the atmosphere preventing the more interesting forms of art (feature/short films, docs, experimental,...) , which are more valuable to be shot with such top gear like Red's, in my opinion. But sure, it won't fund your gear.

I think there are enough bad things shot in 4K now. It's about time that camera makers release affordable 4K cameras so we'll be able to more interesting things, made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs. By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Kristin

PS : I had high hopes, when Jim started his company, that, at last, someone would understand this need shared by a lot of people. I thought that if someone could, it would be him. I understand that a private compny needs to make money, and the realease of the Red One then the Epic is a good choice, but the abondon of the Scarlet 2/3" or the idea of an affordable 4K camera is just a betrayal.

Does that mean that only the rich can have access to the 4K future ?

Kristin...

sorry you're taking a lot of flak :/ you do bring up some good ideas, just try to keep it cool... and positive i get the same attitude some days. i can appreciate your frustrating position... if you want to borrow me or my camera for something meaningful and awesome, (we'd love to come visit) - me and silver are here for you... cool?

from the perspective of what would be good for our culture, and cinema - yeah i think it would be good if 4k was more accessible. but that doesn't mean it makes sense financially... that's just how it is. the problem there is a lot bigger than a camera company... it's the way our society is structured. and in fact, red is one of the most considerate and purposeful companies i've ever known about... jim's obviously not trying to get rich off of this... he genuinely wants to make things better. in any case, 4k cinema actually is now more affordable than ever. folks can rent these things that never could before, even if they can't buy it. and honestly, i've seen a lot of good movies shot on dslr's... which is as cheap as it gets. you don't need 4k to make a story stand out. as awesome as i think it is, it's really not that important. but it is awesome.

4k is a wise decision for professional work moving forward. not at all necessary for beginning filmmakers to visualize their ideas... but if they can get their hands on one, hey - all the better. just don't forget what it's all about.

 

[Peter Moretti]

In fact, when you look at the prices, all the announcements, be they Red or Sony/Canon/etc... are disappointing... unless you live in the fourth dimension, ie you're a big pro doing shitty commercials/Hollywood porn/etc... I guess none of these camera makers will soon give what most indy filmmakers are waiting for, a $6000 DSLR 4K camera. It will happen, but when ? All these companies are just protecting their high-profile clients, Red included.

The saddest thing about all that, is just when you look at the footage these F65/Epic/Alexa owners are doing. Just a pain for the soul, as I like to say. I can't believe that some dads are filming their kids with an Epic and, furthermore, are so proud to showcase it on the Shot on Red section ;-)

Rant over ;-)


Kristin

I hate to say it, but I think this is the biggest crock of you know what. NO ONE DESERVES A 4K CAMERA. And no one needs a 4K camera to make a beautiful movie. I saw "Like Crazy," and it looked lovely. It was shot on a DSLR and had two name actors in it, Anton Yelchin and Jennifer Lawrence. But a DSLR isn't good enough for YOU? What's so special and in need of theatrical release future-proofing about YOUR projects? Enlighten me.

Ever heard of a movie called "Secretariat?" It's effing beautiful and it was shot in 1080P w/ a Genesis. How about the Alexa, which Roger Deakins loves? It records 1080P too. I guess you NEED a camera with higher resolution than Deakins does. Give me a break!

Red is already insanely cheaper than all of these cameras. Sacrlet is cheaper than most *recorders* for the Alexa and Sony CineAlta cams. And what happens when you get your 4K for $4K camera? Are you going to post on Western Digital's website that hard drives are too expensive? Or HP b/c DreamColor displays are too costly? Or Adobe b/c CS? will still probably cost over a grand? How about sound? Maybe Senheiser should sell MKH-60's for $200, and Sound Devices their recorders for the price of a Zoom? Why not bitch out and try to quilt Zeiss into selling cine lenses for the price of a M4/3rd's kit lens. I mean really, if you want to make film worthy of 4k, you're going to need all of these.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

Ha. I kind of anticipated this reaction. Like I said, I'm not arguing for or against any camera or any format... Just playing devils advocate and pointing out the problem for those people that say you *need* RAW for digital cinema. That's simply not true, no matter how much you think it is (it's like saying that a movie has to be shot on film to be considered a real movie.)

It's more wants vs needs (and it seems I'm the only one that recognizes that everyone is going to be different). It's also a matter cost and maxing (or balancing) features vs. $$. Personally, I'd be satisfied with a 4k s35 24p/30p camera that gave you the option to record either RAW or 422 with ~13stops, so long as it was ~$5000-7500 ready to shoot (cheap media too) and had decent low-light performance and XLR-in. Above and beyond that there is a huge grey area (for me.) I'd love FF35... not willing to pay triple for it though. I'd love properly downscaled 2k/1080 of the entire sensor, but not willing to pay for it. Love 120+ fps, not sure I'd be willing to pay triple for it though...

I know that sounds like it's impossible to deliver at $5000-7500, but I guess I'm spoiled by what Scarlet/5Dmk3/FS100/FS700/C300 offer between $3000-15,000 price range. The hard part is that, personally, I don't care for all the bells and whistles, but I do want all the top-end digital cinema functionality (e.g. 4k and RAW at 24p are needs, high speed frame rates and HDRx are wants that I'd prefer were excluded if it could drive the price down... apparently it wouldn't.)

Also, as I said in my previous post, I think the C300 is massively overpriced for what you get, but I recognize the fact that some shooting requires the easiest operating solution (and baked-in is objectively easier.)

Thanks Mike.

For some on this board it will always be "my way or the highway" = in translation: either you get a Red or go get a bottom of the line video camera. Nope, none of the other cinema style cameras are any good and if you are not with us you must be against us.

Like you, I think the principles and philosophies of Red are awesome - but there are markets and types of productions that are well served by any number of the other cameras you listed. There are many parameters that each individual user has to take into account and that's how we all make decisions. Unlike many here who had to sell their car or admittedly spent time to "save up" pennies to get their prized Scarlet, others just get the camera they need now and when a suitable project comes that requires the specific abilities that (in this case) one of the Red cameras can deliver, they go and get it then. Plain and simple.

Also, at the peril of being attacked, for some - including myself - it was also the reliability issues and other parameters like the lack of XLR audio with Phantom power that might mean "joining the Red revolution" just a bit later, once these have been dealt with. Which I am sure they will, in time.

There, I said it - fire!

 

[Trevor Meeks]

There's no lack of XLR audio... get the A-Box from Wooden Camera. Phantom will come... firmware updates are free and beat the shit out of any firmware update canon, sony, arri, etc have ever released...

If that's what's been keeping you from buying a RED, I believe your problem is solved. Enjoy your new camera.