NAB new announcements...

[Carter Cammack]

Actually a couple of nice used packages for sale here on REDUSER if someone needs a turnkey kit.

As for NAB, it's an awesome show even when RED doesn't bring new stuff.
Just to know Jim is pulling the veil off the next new breakthrough is a BIG bonus!

 

[Paul Ellington]

Now, back to the topic at hand....

I will now take on the roll of a reporter at a press conference (has Jim ever done a press conference?). Let's see where this goes.

Steve: Jim, can you tell us what you will be revealing at NAB this year?
Jim:

Steve: Okay, can you give us a hint?
Jim:

Steve: What do you think will be the most important factor that will put 4K in the mainstream marketplace?
Jim:

Steve: If you release a new sensor, presumably Dragon, which cameras do you anticipate will get this upgrade and when do you anticipate that any cameras purchased new from RED will have this sensor built in?
Jim:

Steve: What makes RED different and positions you ahead of all other companies in this race for higher resolution, higher dynamic range, etc?
Jim:

Steve: What is your ideal vision for RED over the next few years?
Jim:

Steve: Can you tell us about the RED Laser projector?
Jim:

Steve: Have you and Jarred ever had a fight?​ (sorry couldn't resist)
Jim:

And they said you were not funny Steve... :0)

 

[Steve Sherrick]

And they said you were not funny Steve... :0)

My kids think I'm pretty funny. Then again, most people never get to see that side of me.

 

[Andrew M.]

Actually a couple of nice used packages for sale here on REDUSER if someone needs a turnkey kit.

Exactly, there are good deals here and for price of 2/3 sensor camera from another guys you can buy here used 4K and more so after the NAB

I think that low budged people should get used to “battle tested” RED equipment here without getting to much sentimental about unpacking the new goodies.

I think RED can supply new original packing material if it really counts so much

 

[Paul Ellington]

My kids think I'm pretty funny. Then again, most people never get to see that side of me.

Youre making Boston sound like it grew up a little...

 

[Rob Ruffo]

No, that's not what I really meant, but if you like to film your dogs, that's fine with me, as long as you don't want me to watch. The problem isn't all those people making money shooting shit work like music videos, commercials, specs, wedding tuff, etc... It's a living, I respect that, there aren't a lot of interesting artists on Reduser anyway. The problem is more with the fact that it pollutes the atmosphere preventing the more interesting forms of art (feature/short films, docs, experimental,...) , which are more valuable to be shot with such top gear like Red's, in my opinion. But sure, it won't fund your gear.

I think there are enough bad things shot in 4K now. It's about time that camera makers release affordable 4K cameras so we'll be able to more interesting things, made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs. By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Kristin

PS : I had high hopes, when Jim started his company, that, at last, someone would understand this need shared by a lot of people. I thought that if someone could, it would be him. I understand that a private compny needs to make money, and the realease of the Red One then the Epic is a good choice, but the abondon of the Scarlet 2/3" or the idea of an affordable 4K camera is just a betrayal.

Does that mean that only the rich can have access to the 4K future ?

You sir, are an arrogant, ignorant jerk. I rarely use language like this here, but I will. We put TREMEMDOUS amounts of thought, passion, work and love in each and every shot of our music videos and commercials, as do many other Reduser members working in these domains. People watch music videos by choice - some videos this year have been seen by half a billion people! They search this out online because they ENJOY it, because it inspires them, because it gives them something.

Who are you to tell them they should watch whatever depressing drivel you and your probably equally pretentious friends feel is "important". Who are you? The World Minister of Culture in global dictatorship?

And by the way - Hollywood has few wasps working in it. Many Jews, Blacks Italians and a variety of other immigrant descents. If anything there is a bit of prejudice against wasps in the film and music businesses. There are also few people from traditional suburban middle class backgrounds. I am not wasp (look at my name). Just shows how utterly clueless you are.

 

[WOT Fanar]

4k for $300 is silly but I for one spent about two years with $7,000 put aside for RED 2/3” but could not afford the upgrade to what was actually released. I understand that the prosumer market shifted and I think releasing a 2/3” sensor was smart in 2008 when announced and silly in the dslr world of 2011 when cancelled. The thing I miss is the idea that the amazing colour science, operating system, and modules where the same for a high school’s best camera and a Hollywood blockbuster film crew. I was hoping that students could walk strait on to set or the editing suit and regardless of budget knew they where working with RED and I feel it was a shame that never happened.

That having been said since I fist found out about RED in 2007 ish I have followed this forum almost daily and this company has blown my mind so many times I have lost count, and with the exception of running late have only let me down once. April the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] is my birthday and I can assure you I will spend every second of it trying to find live streams and pictures from the RED party because I have every confidence that they will blow my mind all over again, and so I can run to where Jim through the ball.

Kristin,

I'm not sure what you want but 4K at $300 is just not possible. If you feel betrayed... your expectations were not realistic.

This is hard stuff as evidenced by the others inability to do it either. 5 years ago you could buy a Sony F35 with recorder for $350K. It is a 1080P camera.

You aren't going to get much support for crying about price/performance of RED from me. We have busted our asses to get where we are and we think the industry is better off for our efforts.

This is also a Recon post... so please take your disappointment to another area of the forum.

Jim

 

[Rob Ruffo]

So we give "true artists" free RED cameras? Perhaps we can have a communist revolution and the government can take over RED and then put the people on a long waiting list for free RED cameras. How would the government know if someone is a true artist though? Would they have a waiting list and the state decides?

HAHAHA Awesome. I say the same about people who feel studios owe them free access to pirated movies. OK. I'm done derailing. Fact is I'm impatient to see news.... Tomorrow right?

And thanks Jim. We got way more than hoped dealing with you. We love our Reds. We will buy more. We rarely use other cams except when needing specialty oddball apps (like a camera on someone's helmet, 2000 fps, or whatnot).

 

[Nick Morrison]

You sir, are an arrogant, ignorant jerk. I rarely use language like this here, but I will. We put TREMEMDOUS amounts of thought, passion, work and love in each and every shot of our music videos and commercials, as do many other Reduser members working in these domains. People watch music videos by choice - some videos this year have been seen by half a billion people! They search this out online because they ENJOY it, because it inspires them, because it gives them something.

Who are you to tell them they should watch whatever depressing drivel you and your probably equally pretentious friends feel is "important". Who are you? The World Minister of Culture in global dictatorship?

And by the way - Hollywood has few wasps working in it. Many Jews, Blacks Italians and a variety of other immigrant descents. If anything there is a bit of prejudice against wasps in the film and music businesses. There are also few people from traditional suburban middle class backgrounds. I am not wasp (look at my name). Just shows how utterly clueless you are.

+1!!!!!

I'd like to add the following:

To make "art" you don't need a RED, any camera will do (as others have already said, very eloquently). "Tiny Furniture" was shot on a 7D three years ago, to great acclaim. "Dance in the Dark" as one poster said, was shot on DV-Cam. "28 Days Later" was shot on camcorders. Technology is not a deterrent to telling a great story - only your time and talent can get you there.

Kristen's suggestion that artists need perfect 4K in order to reach their potential obscures that point that most great artists began humbly, and were defined by their CRAFT, not their resources. Picasso could make art out of anything, and was RENOWNED for his technique. The suggestion that commercials and music videos are "shit work" also obscures the fact that throughout history, great artists (being great craftsman), made a living by selling their craft (they never saw it as making art, that is a modern phenomenon). All of the royal and aristocratic portraits that line the worlds greatest museums are just old fashioned versions of "commercials", except they are for people, not products.

it also overlooks the fact that many of the world's greatest film-makers subsidize their craft by MAKING commercials. From Michele Gondry, to Spike Lee, to Christopher Guest (I'm trying to cover a wide demo)....all of them direct commercials and do so to make $$$ and to learn/try new things.

Art has always had a long history with commerce. It's only very recently that there has been a modern trend at trying to separate the two. In so doing, "art" has not only abandoned commerce, but also technique (I'm not saying modern artists don't have technique, but not all of them "have to" have it; now simply a concept can suffice).

However in the film world, w/out technique, you are just going to make crap. Which is why most frequently the greatest craftsman are also our greatest artists. They make our greatest films, music videos, and commercials.

So to attack commercials and music videos to me in effect becomes an attack on our greatest craftsmen. Which I find rather disappointing. And it also betrays a romanticization of "art" over "craft" that I find out of place in the film world.

As the son of a European film-maker, I can speak first hand to how the generous subsidies there for independent cinema perpetuate this myth of "the artist". The slow decay of European film-making over the past 20-30 years shows that this myth isn't doing them any favors. The days of Germany and Italy dominating the film world are long, long gone...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

No, that's not what I really meant, but if you like to film your dogs, that's fine with me, as long as you don't want me to watch. The problem isn't all those people making money shooting shit work like music videos, commercials, specs, wedding tuff, etc... It's a living, I respect that, there aren't a lot of interesting artists on Reduser anyway. The problem is more with the fact that it pollutes the atmosphere preventing the more interesting forms of art (feature/short films, docs, experimental,...) , which are more valuable to be shot with such top gear like Red's, in my opinion. But sure, it won't fund your gear.

I think there are enough bad things shot in 4K now. It's about time that camera makers release affordable 4K cameras so we'll be able to more interesting things, made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs. By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Kristin

PS : I had high hopes, when Jim started his company, that, at last, someone would understand this need shared by a lot of people. I thought that if someone could, it would be him. I understand that a private compny needs to make money, and the realease of the Red One then the Epic is a good choice, but the abondon of the Scarlet 2/3" or the idea of an affordable 4K camera is just a betrayal.

Does that mean that only the rich can have access to the 4K future ?

Hi,

To others, this post might be a bit abrasive, more than arrogant as has been implied, but sometimes what we think is arrogance is just plain truth (or opinion of truth from somebody else's perspective. I admit, in one place it might be confusung as to what the target/subject is that is being referred to. What he is talking about is a lower cost camera that allows a struggling Indie to reach up to the bottom of the top bracket (4k now), of which there is only the $5k JVC at the moment.

Dogs, children, are useful subjects to get a quick idea of what can be done, we don't have to look at them. The high end stuff, we want to sell it nit show it for free here .

If you want cheaper 4k then you just are going to need volume, and mass market manufacturing expertise in complex electronics (maybe even automated assembly), Eben mass market components, to bring the cost down. It is unlike simpler volume manufacturing runs, and needs deep expertise that Red may lack. In other words, companies like Sony, Panasonic, JVC (maybe), and lots of $100 Chinese OEM camera makers have this expertise, if they want too. You could form a coalition to ask some of those companies, that, with their expertise, how come Red can release a better product cheaper but they can't release a good 4k product much cheaper then a Red Svarlet x , which they should be able too, how few dollers would it cost to add a uncompressed recording mode, or output connector, to something like a Nex 5n, for nearly the same price and maybe a little atrachable controll panel or grip (dollers). You could also ask why instead of leaping ahead to 8k in whatever camera market, with all the advantages of mass market producers lots of companies have, which is doable, instead we are just seeing 4k, in not so tremendous package as a scarlet x, in step with different products, when 4k like resolution has been a goer in 2004. Maybe there will be some authorities that might like to look into that. We (and the American public) should have 4k like pocket cameras by now for under $500, not having the public forced to pay over $10k for descent 4k (except the lower JVC), 4k should have been a goer on the prosumer end closer to 2008 when over 6mpp60 burst was out on a approximatly $1000 camera. How come the steps in variouse generations in the last ten or so years, are similar, as too who goes when, what type of products etc. But if you want cheap 4k cameras now, firm a group and go talk to Didlier over at www.ambarella.com about using their chipsets to record uncompressed/output 4k (or fhd) raw. Even the new low end version will take 16mp at 30 fps off chip, just getting it out a port to a file system. OEM manufacturers will do even a thousands cameras (well several years ago) on this sort of design. Maybe your group can customise the interface and control. You could put together a purchasing group, or just get them to release a quality consumer model with the extra functionality tucjed away (look at the 4k 2/3rds aptina sensor).

Anyway, jesting aside, if you want it cheaper it is going to have to include all the small local production videographers, ad makers, music video, Eng people etc, even prosumers, to get the numbers to drive down the price, and mass market parts to drive down the price even further (you can get a 2.5k class camera like that for thousands) . I was in this low cost cinema camera game before Red, I should know.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

I understand that a private compny needs to make money, and the realease of the Red One then the Epic is a good choice, but the abondon of the Scarlet 2/3" or the idea of an affordable 4K camera is just a betrayal.

Does that mean that only the rich can have access to the 4K future ?

Everybody has said what has needed to be said about your posts, but I have few questions for you:

1. Why do you think that the 2/3 scarlet was supposed to be a 4k camera? It was 3k.
2. Since you are so open to criticize the hard work of many redusers here, can you please share with all of us the videos and films you have made?

Ivan

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Will any of the NAB announcements have anything we can place an order/deposit on? If yes, can we assume there'll be some reduser updates on those during or right after the announcement for those of us not coming to NAB?

 

[Mark Warren]

I have a problem with commercials that promote things of absolutely no benefit to the human race whatsoever. An example for instance are cigarette ads, before they were banned. You could get into a whole philosophical discussion on whether those filmmakers who did great cinematography work to earn a living on big-budget cigarette ads contributed more, or less, on balance, to human wellbeing. I wouldn't bracket all commercials in the one category, the majority promote things of use, but to blanket all people working in advertising as pursuing some noble extension of their art and higher-being, and that it's all good and should be unconditionally respected, is open to debate, IMO.

Each filmmaker, I would imagine, would make their own private choice as to what they become involved with, and that's fair, but to then unilaterally demand that they are respected for everything they do, is not offering the same courtesy.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

We can't wait for the C500 announcement (which obsoletes the C300). ....

Jim

It doesn't. Two different cameras for two different uses / markets. Not everybody needs 4k now. Not everybody shoots theatrical pictures or high-end commercials. There are many other markets that are no less artistic, creative, or financially feasible. Many professional shooters work every day with HD cameras, making great films, and making a very good living. Most of them don't need be saving for months and years and sell their old car to be able to afford "the best camera out there". Most everybody in the industry appreciates what Red has done, not only with the Red cameras themselves - but more importantly, to the industry by forcing other manufacturers to deliver better and less expensive products. But let's be fair here. There are many amazing films from Planet Earth (720p) to features shot on Alexa (2k) that look awesome and tell fantastic stories.

Keep up the good work but don't loose perspective

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I have a problem with commercials that promote things of absolutely no benefit to the human race whatsoever. An example for instance are cigarette ads, before they were banned. You could get into a whole philosophical discussion on whether those filmmakers who did great cinematography work to earn a living on big-budget cigarette ads contributed more, or less, on balance, to human wellbeing. I wouldn't bracket all commercials in the one category, the majority promote things of use, but to blanket all people working in advertising as pursuing some noble extension of their art and higher-being, and that it's all good and should be unconditionally respected, is open to debate, IMO.

Each filmmaker, I would imagine, would make their own private choice as to what they become involved with, and that's fair, but to then unilaterally demand that they are respected for everything they do, is not offering the same courtesy.

Uh... No one is saying that. My wife and I sell music, pretty dresses and other rather inoffensive stuff through our work. We give a lot of people their first break. To many so called "high art" films, I ask "why is it good for society to make them feel depressed?" and "What is so noble about not paying your crew?"

 

[Jannard]

Sorry to disagree. It does IMHO. Someone buys a camera with what they think is the best a company has to offer and spends a pretty penny to buy it. 4 months later, they find out that what they bought isn't the best the company really had to offer. And if you want the new one, step up and buy again.

I wonder how many features shot on 720P or 1080P will be kicking themselves when they realize there will be no 4K re-release? When Blu-ray players are the way of 8 track. WB is rescanning their archive of great films in 4K (shot on film). How do you do that with 1080P?

My beef is that companies don't sell you what you want or what they can really deliver. They lead you down a path of new camera after new camera.

In 2005, Arri published a paper extolling the virtues of a 4K film scan over a 2K film scan (probably still on their website). Then they tell you that 2K is "good enough" because that is what they could build (Alexa). Which is it?

The day of reckoning is here. 4K displays and delivery are upon us. What are people going to do with 1080P features and shows? Pretend it is 4K capable? Up-rez?

35mm film was the best thing that ever happened in our generation... actually the past 100 years. Well, maybe 65mm film. But film couldn't keep pace with Moore's Law. So digital stepped in to save the day. But 1080P is not an adequate replacement for film. It just isn't. I've been saying this since 2000.

Maybe I'm wrong. Many have said so. But the decision will be coming as soon as 4K delivery hits the world this year.

4K (5K) can deliver 1080P. But 1080P cannot deliver 4K.

Again... to your point if the C500 does or does not obsolete the C300. Let's hear just how happy the C300 owners are right now.

Jim

It doesn't. Two different cameras for two different uses / markets. Not everybody needs 4k now. Not everybody shoots theatrical pictures or high-end commercials. There are many other markets that are no less artistic, creative, or financially feasible. Many professional shooters work every day with HD cameras, making great films, and making a very good living. Most of them don't need be saving for months and years and sell their old car to be able to afford "the best camera out there". Most everybody in the industry appreciates what Red has done, not only with the Red cameras themselves - but more importantly, to the industry by forcing other manufacturers to deliver better and less expensive products. But let's be fair here. There are many amazing films from Planet Earth (720p) to features shot on Alexa (2k) that look awesome and tell fantastic stories.

Keep up the good work but don't loose perspective

 

[Mohamed Younis]

Kristin,

I'm not sure what you want but 4K at $300 is just not possible. If you feel betrayed... your expectations were not realistic.

This is hard stuff as evidenced by the others inability to do it either. 5 years ago you could buy a Sony F35 with recorder for $350K. It is a 1080P camera.

You aren't going to get much support for crying about price/performance of RED from me. We have busted our asses to get where we are and we think the industry is better off for our efforts.

This is also a Recon post... so please take your disappointment to another area of the forum.

Jim

A bit harsh Jim, still very true.
As a reply to Kristin, Scarlets will be very cheap to rent. If they can afford 6k cameras they can rent a Scarlet.

 

[Mohamed Younis]

Sorry to disagree. It does IMHO. Someone buys a camera with what they think is the best a company has to offer and spends a pretty penny to buy it. 4 months later, they find out that what they bought isn't the best the company really had to offer. And if you want the new one, step up and buy again.

I wonder how many features shot on 720P or 1080P will be kicking themselves when they realize there will be no 4K re-release? When Blu-ray players are the way of 8 track. WB is rescanning their archive of great films in 4K (shot on film). How do you do that with 1080P?

My beef is that companies don't sell you what you want or what they can really deliver. They lead you down a path of new camera after new camera.

In 2005, Arri published a paper extolling the virtues of a 4K film scan over a 2K film scan (probably still on their website). Then they tell you that 2K is "good enough" because that is what they could build (Alexa). Which is it?

The day of reckoning is here. 4K displays and delivery are upon us. What are people going to do with 1080P features and shows? Pretend it is 4K capable? Up-rez?

35mm film was the best thing that ever happened in our generation... actually the past 100 years. Well, maybe 65mm film. But film couldn't keep pace with Moore's Law. So digital stepped in to save the day. But 1080P is not an adequate replacement for film. It just isn't. I've been saying this since 2000.

Maybe I'm wrong. Many have said so. But the decision will be coming as soon as 4K delivery hits the world this year.

4K (5K) can deliver 1080P. But 1080P cannot deliver 4K.

Again... to your point if the C500 does or does not obsolete the C300. Let's hear just how happy the C300 owners are right now.

Jim

Correct me if i'm wrong
The correct strategy would be to release the C500 first then the C300 for people who can't afford or don't need the C500. If they offered it as the top of the line Canon camera then two month later announced another top of the line Canon camera, then they're just stringing you along.

 

[Jannard]

This makes perfect sense. That is what we would have done. Actually that is what we did.

Jim

Correct me if i'm wrong
The correct strategy would be to release the C500 first then the C300 for people who can't afford or don't need the C500. If they offered it as the top of the line Canon camera then two month later announced another top of the line Canon camera, then they're just stringing you along.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

I admire your passion and feel pretty confident that my investment in Red gear is safe and future proof Next step, as far as I care, is in nuances and even more natural look. I hope. You've already given us specs for a decade...