NAB new announcements...

[daniel caruso]

ha, no worries Nick! It read funny. Yeah its a bitter to the end kind of conversation to some people, and the funny part of our work, is it is an art form and it comes down to the viewers eye, and some "professionals" either don't see it or don't mind it. Ahh, digital has become predominant, this will always go on. I agree fully some cameras work for the application, but my Red has gone in many places people thought not to shoot.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

We can't wait for the C500 announcement (which obsoletes the C300). Or the 1D MK III. They both add to the advancement of the industry. But we have a few announcements of our own.

Obsolescence obsolete.

Jim

Obsolescence obsolete

Oh good, upgrades, or new cameras that are so far advanced it does not matter.

 

[Tim H.]

that was read wrong Nick, of course size doesn't concern bokeh haha. I just mean I hate the unsmooth nature of 8 bit DSLR bokeh; mixed with AF lenses 7D bokeh is not pleasing. Red bokeh is better, mixed with nice glass, the color depth is a big factor no one seems to get.

A friend just sent me a link to the C500, canon keeps fooling the cinema market. Why do they insist on giving us 8bit color!!? Thats the reason I left the 5000 dollar level cameras. With Red I get 65536 values of color and every sky and sunset is silky smooth in gradation, after grading! It is so frustrating how other filmmakers do no see this, or understand it enough to matter and say hey, don't buy this camera because compared to 35mm cinema, this is a joke! Canon gave the C300 8bit, and now again, 8bit, no clue as to what they are doing. Everytime I grade I love to smooth look of Red's bokeh and my beautiful skies, for the same price!

I respect your passion but take a minute to re-read the C500 release:

" All 4K formats can be selected to operate from one to 60 frames per second. The cameras employ a 12-bit RGB 4:4:4 signal format during 2K output, which can be selected to operate from one to 60 frames-per-second (fps) as well. If switched to a 10-bit YCrCb 4:2:2 mode, the camera can operate up to 120 fps."

And at 4K :"10-bit uncompressed RAW data stream with no de-Bayering."

No 8bit in this camera. No De-Bayer Either.

 

[daniel caruso]

yes, thank you Tim, I guess I was reading the 1DC. But still it is via external right? Sometimes tech specs on sheet are different, have to see how it handles and colors and looks in the end. Though at 30,000 speculated price, not sure if it includes recorder, Epic or Scarlet still seems like the winner with 16bit over 10/12. I'll pass on the conversation to someone else and wait for NAB announcements =].

 

[Patrick Grossien]

We can't wait for the C500 announcement (which obsoletes the C300). Or the 1D MK III. They both add to the advancement of the industry. But we have a few announcements of our own.

Obsolescence obsolete.

Jim

I used to love Canon and Sony but I always hated them for playing the "next new feature" game with me. As I did everyone else who played it with me. I always hoped that this shit would one day stop, but never really believed in it. Thank you so much Jim!
If the C500 costs more than 50% of the C300, it's too expensive. No matter what it does.

I'm so looking forward to "my" RED announcements. Already overly excited. Please feed the left behind with info, photos, videos!

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Kristen, I am sorry but this is offbase. No one is entitled to cameras. Those "Pros" you speak of have worked really hard to be able to afford them.

I want a bigger house, so my kids have more space to play, I can have bigger offices, my wife can have a bigger art studio, etc. We have to work really hard to achieve that. No one is going to start selling us big houses for dirt cheap just because we really want one and feel our lives would be better off because of it.

The prices of cameras have come way down. 6 years ago, many of us would not be here discussing owning this level of camera. Let's be thankful the prices are reasonable.

And by the way, I'm a bit offended by the tone of parents filming their kids with RED cameras. Yes, I have done that and I'm very happy I did. My daughter's early years are in archive quality media format. I don't apologize for that. I'm fortunate that it worked out that way.

100% agree. You work really hard, and maybe you get there. If you do, you are grateful and you count yourself lucky. I am one of those "soulless" types described. People need entertainment, people enjoy what my wife and I do. We help other people make a living. We get well paid for that. Grow up Kristin. Deal with it.

Also, deal with the fact that we own Reds and use them sometimes to film our DOGS. Why not? Should we only use them to film the dreary navel-gazing slow-paced art film you feel you should be entitled to making, but are held back from due to camera companies not seeing themselves as charities for your personal benefit?

 

[Per von Koch]

In fact, when you look at the prices, all the announcements, be they Red or Sony/Canon/etc... are disappointing... unless you live in the fourth dimension, ie you're a big pro doing shitty commercials/Hollywood porn/etc... I guess none of these camera makers will soon give what most indy filmmakers are waiting for, a $6000 DSLR 4K camera. It will happen, but when ? All these companies are just protecting their high-profile clients, Red included.

The saddest thing about all that, is just when you look at the footage these F65/Epic/Alexa owners are doing. Just a pain for the soul, as I like to say. I can't believe that some dads are filming their kids with an Epic and, furthermore, are so proud to showcase it on the Shot on Red section ;-)


Rant over ;-)


Kristin

So go and buy the Canon 1D F that I'm sure is going to be announced in the next quarter. I hear it can do 4K in H.264 for $5.995

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I can't believe that some dads are filming their kids with an Epic and, furthermore, are so proud to showcase it on the Shot on Red section ;-)

Come on Kristin! OUCH! Oh well, atleast I did not showcase my kids in the Shot on Red section. Even though they are incredibly cute... And hey, are you that actress from that Twilight movie...?

Back to topic:
CANNOT wait for NAB. Now that the acquisition part is all decided and in place for me, its ALL ABOUT POST!!! RED ROCKET better be part of the announcement. Been holding off waiting for the next gen.

 

[Kristin Stewart]

Also, deal with the fact that we own Reds and use them sometimes to film our DOGS. Why not? Should we only use them to film the dreary navel-gazing slow-paced art film you feel you should be entitled to making, but are held back from due to camera companies not seeing themselves as charities for your personal benefit?

No, that's not what I really meant, but if you like to film your dogs, that's fine with me, as long as you don't want me to watch. The problem isn't all those people making money shooting shit work like music videos, commercials, specs, wedding tuff, etc... It's a living, I respect that, there aren't a lot of interesting artists on Reduser anyway. The problem is more with the fact that it pollutes the atmosphere preventing the more interesting forms of art (feature/short films, docs, experimental,...) , which are more valuable to be shot with such top gear like Red's, in my opinion. But sure, it won't fund your gear.

I think there are enough bad things shot in 4K now. It's about time that camera makers release affordable 4K cameras so we'll be able to more interesting things, made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs. By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Kristin

PS : I had high hopes, when Jim started his company, that, at last, someone would understand this need shared by a lot of people. I thought that if someone could, it would be him. I understand that a private compny needs to make money, and the realease of the Red One then the Epic is a good choice, but the abondon of the Scarlet 2/3" or the idea of an affordable 4K camera is just a betrayal.

Does that mean that only the rich can have access to the 4K future ?

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

No, that's not what I really meant, but if you like to film your dogs, that's fine with me, as long as you don't want me to watch. The problem isn't all those people making money shooting shit work like music videos, commercials, specs, wedding tuff, etc... It's a living, I respect that, there aren't a lot of interesting artists on Reduser anyway. The problem is more with the fact that it pollutes the atmosphere preventing the more interesting forms of art (feature/short films, docs, experimental,...) , which are more valuable to be shot with such top gear like Red's, in my opinion. But sure, it won't fund your gear.

I think there are enough bad things shot in 4K now. It's about time that camera makers release affordable 4K cameras so we'll be able to more interesting things, made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs. By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Kristin

my goodness, this is a rather arrogant post.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

100% agree. You work really hard, and maybe you get there. If you do, you are grateful and you count yourself lucky. I am one of those "soulless" types described. People need entertainment, people enjoy what my wife and I do. We help other people make a living. We get well paid for that. Grow up Kristin. Deal with it.

Also, deal with the fact that we own Reds and use them sometimes to film our DOGS. Why not? Should we only use them to film the dreary navel-gazing slow-paced art film you feel you should be entitled to making, but are held back from due to camera companies not seeing themselves as charities for your personal benefit?

Oh god...

 

[Mick van Rossum NSC]

my goodness, this is a rather arrogant post.

That is mildly put... what a nonsense.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

This should be an exciting time for redusers, in anticipation of a really interesting NAB and the unveiling of all these closely held secrets we have been waiting on.

moderators need to drop the hammer on these distractions. I prefer to see the fur fly AFTER the announcements (as it invariably does!), not before.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

100% agree. You work really hard, and maybe you get there. If you do, you are grateful and you count yourself lucky. I am one of those "soulless" types described. People need entertainment, people enjoy what my wife and I do. We help other people make a living. We get well paid for that. Grow up Kristin. Deal with it.

Also, deal with the fact that we own Reds and use them sometimes to film our DOGS. Why not? Should we only use them to film the dreary navel-gazing slow-paced art film you feel you should be entitled to making, but are held back from due to camera companies not seeing themselves as charities for your personal benefit?

Oh god...

 

[Andrae Palmer]

In fact, when you look at the prices, all the announcements, be they Red or Sony/Canon/etc... are disappointing... unless you live in the fourth dimension, ie you're a big pro doing shitty commercials/Hollywood porn/etc... I guess none of these camera makers will soon give what most indy filmmakers are waiting for, a $6000 DSLR 4K camera. It will happen, but when ? All these companies are just protecting their high-profile clients, Red included.

The saddest thing about all that, is just when you look at the footage these F65/Epic/Alexa owners are doing. Just a pain for the soul, as I like to say. I can't believe that some dads are filming their kids with an Epic and, furthermore, are so proud to showcase it on the Shot on Red section ;-)

Rant over ;-)


Kristin

Why does a poor indy "need" a 4K professional cinema camera? Can't they shoot a movie on an iPhone? If they are talented... shouldn't they be able to rise to the top with what is currently affordable?

 

[Ale Houston]

Well, you said it yourself.. this is a business.. a cinema based business.. and no one is ignoring no one.. 5 years ago would you have dreamed to shoot 35mm film like resolution with tons of dynamic range, a compact form and all that flexibility in post, with Scarlet like prices? NO..

IMO Scarlet is a professional answer for professional needs.. If you intend to shoot 2/3, then I guess you have no business asking for nice looking 4K.. there's a bunch of affordable HD cameras in the market for that purpose.. and affordable 4K is already here.. I mean, if you are really serious about the kind of work you do, then you can't be asking companies to create a "i have no money to fund my last short/docs/feature please give me a semi free camera" fund.. this is the real world, if you want something, then you have to work hard to own it.

And please define rich, because if we were able to buy an Epic in a poor country like Paraguay, I'm sure that with a little work you can pull to buy a Scarlet or even an Epic.. After all, you can have a working Scarlet AL Canon and a nice set of Canon glass for about 24K..

"Made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs" those "uninteresting" people you talk about are the ones enabling companies like Red to continously develop new affordable technologies, by buying products!.. so I guess they (we) deserve a little more respect... after all, this is a Red USER forum..

 

[Evan Starkey]

Fk Fk Fk i cant stand it any more my new dam toaster only cooks the one side if the breads to thick because it thinks its a crumpet...what the hells going on in this world

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

The camera on a modern iPhone is better than most cameras that were used in the wave of danish cinema in the nineties, producing some of the most renowned films of the period on home video equipment. Even - at the time - the most costly nordic film of all time - Dancer in the Dark, had large parts shot on Sony DP-10 cameras, the rest on DV broadcast cameras. If you can't or want to bind up huge amounts of money in gear ownership or gear rental, enjoy the freedom of being "poor". That being said, I think Kirsten has a lot of valid points, there is a lot of cinematic nonsense in the red-community, driven by gear fetishists that I have a hard time understanding the motivations of...

 

[Andrae Palmer]

The camera on a modern iPhone is better than most cameras that were used in the wave of danish cinema in the nineties, producing some of the most renowned films of the period on home video equipment. Even - at the time - the most costly nordic film of all time - Dancer in the Dark, had large parts shot on Sony DP-10 cameras, the rest on DV broadcast cameras. If you can't or want to bind up huge amounts of money in gear ownership or gear rental, enjoy the freedom of being "poor". That being said, I think Kirsten has a lot of valid points, there is a lot of cinematic nonsense in the red-community, driven by gear fetishists that I have a hard time understanding the motivations of...

The funny part is that she's caught up in the gear fetish too... lol. Next thing she'll want an ARRI MB-20 for $5... because every poor indy deserves an ARRI MB-20 to overthrow the WASP system.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

No, that's not what I really meant, but if you like to film your dogs, that's fine with me, as long as you don't want me to watch. The problem isn't all those people making money shooting shit work like music videos, commercials, specs, wedding tuff, etc... It's a living, I respect that, there aren't a lot of interesting artists on Reduser anyway. The problem is more with the fact that it pollutes the atmosphere preventing the more interesting forms of art (feature/short films, docs, experimental,...) , which are more valuable to be shot with such top gear like Red's, in my opinion. But sure, it won't fund your gear.

I think there are enough bad things shot in 4K now. It's about time that camera makers release affordable 4K cameras so we'll be able to more interesting things, made by more interesting people than the usual WASPs. By the way, the American cinema has always been more interesting when made by foreigners (Germans like Lang, Lubitch, Europeans, or Italians, etc...) I think it's time now to see movies made by Afro-Americans, Mexicans, etc... the ones who can't afford your great and so expensive gear. The ones most of the cinema business usually completely ignores.

Kristin

PS : I had high hopes, when Jim started his company, that, at last, someone would understand this need shared by a lot of people. I thought that if someone could, it would be him. I understand that a private compny needs to make money, and the realease of the Red One then the Epic is a good choice, but the abondon of the Scarlet 2/3" or the idea of an affordable 4K camera is just a betrayal.

Does that mean that only the rich can have access to the 4K future ?

Thread de-rail set to maximum...

But having said that I would never class wedding videos, music videos, commecials or anything like that as 'shit work' - it's just plain disrespectful to the people who dont just make a living from it, but also enjoy doing it. Also disrespectful to the large number of redusers who you think are not 'interesting artists'

If you have an axe to grind, so be it. I don't think economics, be they commercial (eg the price of cameras) or social (eg who / which ethnicity can afford the camera- which I also find a tad racist) of Red and the products they release have a place here, in my very small and humble opinion.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your tone - in which case I apologise - but reading your post (and your previous post) I can't help but think you're angry at a tool that costs a fraction of what it once would have in years gone by. There are other cameras, other avenues and other opportunities. And sometimes, it means taking a risk or two and betting on your talent.

(apologies to Jim and redusers reading this - I'm sure its not the sort of thing any of us want to read or write as we're gearing up for the excitment of NAB. Moderators, if possible, perhaps a clean sweeping of this thread? or perhaps move the / our negative posts to a less disruptive locale?)