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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

My worries

bobaandy

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Approximate price of a Canon XH-G1 now: $4,500
Approximate price of a Canon XH-G1 during fall '09: $1000-$1200 TOPS.

As summer begins to end and people expect the cheaper Scarlets to come out, most people will begin to sell off their old gear to help pay for a new Scarlet.
Suddenly, eBay is flooded with prosumer video cameras. Once expensive cameras are going for an incredible bargain. Cameras will begin to sell for cheaper and cheaper as more and more are put up for sale, and eventually it will become of no monetary gain to even sell your camera in the first place. Your camera that once was worth thousands of dollars is now worthless.

Then theirs the flipside. People who try to sell their cameras AFTER the Scarlet comes out. They're even MORE screwed. If everyone has a camera their perfectly happy with, why would they need a new one? Plus for the price you'd be paying for a used prosumer camera, they could go buy a 2/3s cinema brain.
Clients will begin picking and paying more for people with a new RED camera. As they do research, they will pick up on this strange "RED Scarlet" and begin to ask if you have one or not. When you say no, and quote them a price, they're going to go pick the other guy who DOES have one and who can give them the same price.

This is what I have been thinking about. I am shooting a short over the summer, and wanted to shoot it on the XH-G1. I was going to shoot the film, then sell it and used the money to help buy my Scarlet. But even though it'll only be used a few weeks, it's still going to be hard to sell with the launch of the RED cameras right around the corner. I still have no idea what to do, and am still trying to think about it.

Who is the winner in all this? The film camera owners/sellers. I expect prices of film cameras to change very little, just because they're so different and appeal to different people.

Just my thoughts.
 
Remember the raw workflow costs rather more than a straight video finish
 
Bob, I think you are WAY overestimating the drop in price on existing gear. Not every lives on these boards and knows the latest and greatest. The Canon line is strong for MANY, many people. It's possible the gear will be unloaded for a discount, but no way will a XH-G1 be down to the $1000 range this year. Not unless it's being sold out of trunk...
 
The scarlet or any Raw type digital camera has the problem of the workflow. For most consumers, they are not buying a camera to make a blockbuster movie. Only home videos so they want them as easy as possible. I still rent out PD150's & XL-1S's all the time. Maybe you should keep it and rent it. Or just have it as a back-up camera just incase.
 
If in doubt, rent your camera for the production and bide your time. Agreed re: the post workflow of the whole RED system, the workflow is basically sorted out (even though it's time consuming), and looks incredible, but boy does it take some computing power/storage etc.

You can't really do a RED feature on an iMac for example, where you could probably get away doing some pretty down and dirty long form work originated on a video system.

Don't get me wrong, you should definitely rock your way into RED world, it's a beautiful place. Just look as whatever you lose on the video camera purchase, or rental, as just part of the production cost of whatever you're making at that time.



Cal
 
It is amazing how so many people are way ahead of reality. If you want to be in the movie making business now you have to invest money in equipment now. If you have a deal to pay for your production at this moment you don't wait around for Scarlet to maybe come out after the summer. Remember, delivery schedules are open to change.
And if you are doing a project on spec is amazing that anybody can can be sure your piece will sell automatically and you are going to see windfall at your feet. If you want to start any business you have to have the money to invest without having to worry about the future. All businesses carry risks with them.
 
If in doubt, rent your camera for the production and bide your time.

Well, the thing with productions more then a few days long is that it would be cheaper buy a camera then it would be to rent it.

Thanks for bringing me back to reality, everyone. I guess I'm just being paranoid.

John, the point is that my production would be taking place before the Scarlet came out.
 
John, the point is that my production would be taking place before the Scarlet came out.

Go get the best camera you can get now and do it! Don't worry about the future. By the time Scarlet comes out you will be ready for your next production after successfuly taking care of this one now. Good luck.
 
The scarlet or any Raw type digital camera has the problem of the workflow. For most consumers, they are not buying a camera to make a blockbuster movie. Only home videos so they want them as easy as possible. I still rent out PD150's & XL-1S's all the time. Maybe you should keep it and rent it. Or just have it as a back-up camera just incase.

Well.. Prepare for the new scarlets... They are able to shoot 1080p ff .. Which means RGB .. Expect nice compression on that.. Also its easy to support such codec in any platform.. Like usual tapeless workflow cameras..
 
Approximate price of a Canon XH-G1 now: $4,500
Approximate price of a Canon XH-G1 during fall '09: $1000-$1200 TOPS.

As summer begins to end and people expect the cheaper Scarlets to come out, most people will begin to sell off their old gear to help pay for a new Scarlet.
Suddenly, eBay is flooded with prosumer video cameras. Once expensive cameras are going for an incredible bargain.

Who is the winner in all this? The film camera owners/sellers. I expect prices of film cameras to change very little, just because they're so different and appeal to different people.

Just my thoughts.

If you are just going to shoot one short why not just Rent a camera? On a 1 day weekend that cam would prob. $200 at most. That is much less than the loss due to value decrease. Or buy used so that the eventual "loss" is not so severe.

The other thing is I don't think your ideas about pricing are on target. RED is not going to destroy the entire HDV market that quickly. There is still a big need for "direct to video" without the complexities of the RED workflow. I just don't see such a big price drop. RED is going to eat into that market yes. But, it will take time. As another poster pointed to here. There is a big world out there and not all of them know about Scarlet or RED.

As for the price of Film Cameras; it does not matter too much. The real cost is the cost of shooting actual film. That is not going to go down. Even if 35mm Film Motion Picture Cameras cost $0 you would still end up putting out more than the cost of a decent HDV cam just to shoot a short of any substantial length. (and your shoots would prob. take longer)
 
Bobaandy,
....and I thougt that people at first pay for good footage and not for camera. You can allways rent good camera and buy new one just when everythig settle down. So dont jump to that hype with cameras and care more about how to made good picture. Btw renting prices will also fall down. Same hysteria like with RED x EPIC :)
 
I am one of those thinking of selling my camera to pay for a Scarlett when it comes out. It's the last thing I want to do as I like my JVC GY-HD201E for everyday run and gun stuff. Also, I use my camera to ingest footage so without it I'll have to rent a player to access my archive in the future.
The truth is that personally,I think the world hasn't caught up with Red yet. The film industary has the money to test and produce with these wonderful developments, the small production houses don't. Take where I work for example. I freelance for a very small production company in Asturias, Spain. It's main staple is corporates and the odd spot. We still shoot in 4:3 and use a Sony SX (which is still a great image maker). I was asked to write a review on how the company should proceed when acquisitioning it's next camera. I'm in the process of writing it and have been told not to worry about Red line as the client won't see the differance and here, HD is still a fancy futuristic concept. 16:9 is the biggest concern for the boss. He asked me to start looking for a secondhand 16:9 SX!
My point to all this is that as a camera opp I can't wait to get my hands on the new Red's but I know I will purchase it for my own satisfaction. I'm not a great cameraman by a long shot but I do love cameras and my hat is off to the Red team for giving people like myself a chance to produce the unthinkable...... beautiful image quality at a prosumer price.
The small production houses however will continue to get the most out of what they have and profit by it.

This message was brought to you by A walk in snowy mountains followed by roast lamb and washed down by 3 or 6 glasses of Rioja.
So forgive my rambling
 
I think fast turnaround HDTV and SDTV production will be better served with standard video camera systems for a long time. They are not going away.
 
Sometimes I tire of all the "worrying". :-)

Agreed.
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I'm still not sure exactly how the 2/3-inch Scarlet will handle full-frame 1080p, which is typically 16:9. Its Mysterium X imager is roughly 1.89:1, which doesn't seem to match, without cropping or windowing, any of the aspect ratios Scarlet is slated to support (16:9, 2:1, 2.40:1). Does the 1080p full frame measure 2,880 x 1,620 (cropping the sides but using the full vertical pixel count), or is it smaller?
 
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