Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

My last RED

Status
Not open for further replies.
Justin O'Neill said:
Here is what bothers me about people saying the price decrease de-values the RED brand. Before RED came along the Sony F23 was over $100k and film cameras were hundreds of thousands of dollars. When RED announced the 4k RED One in 2007 for $17,500 it allowed people like us to join the ranks of the high end camera club. People who owned F23s and film cameras were horrified that they were losing jobs to a camera that cost 1/5th of what theirs did.

Of course it would make my life easier if a camera I paid $10k for cost everyone else $34k, but I as on the other end of that equation just 5 years ago so it feels hypocritical be upset about it. If you look at the history of RED from the beginning, it is more like Epic prices were inflated for the past two years due the massive cost of developing the ASIC and the supply problems caused by the tsunami.
Click to expand...


Thanks for bringing in some soberty into this!
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Your camera's "value" was already perceived to be in the $20K Stage 2 /3 ballpark range. Rental package / hardware day rates are determined by supply and demand in most markets. EPIC kits rent out here for $250/day. Resale value on the EPIC has been held artificially low anyway due to the number of Stage-3 people dumping cameras for around what they paid for their upgrades. This has been going on for about a year. Most every owner/operator I know around here is struggling and starving. Too much competition, not enough of that sort of work. Rental rates barely cover insurance and general maintenance. Nobody wants to hire a glorified babysitter who calls himself a DIT. Productions around here don't use DIT's. They call them DIT's, but they're almost always an intern or low-paid person who does little more than copy files. Those of us in busy markets outside of Hollywood, NYC, and similar have to find other ways to make money and carve out niches for ourselves.
Click to expand...

Scott,

Take a look at what Jeff is saying here. He seems to be proving my point. Supply and demand... he's right. Too much supply... too little demand. RED One MX's at Canon 5D Mark III prices don't help the situation very much.
 
Edited: According to the simple calculations of Rent Me! only soft demand reduces the daily rate of a $19,000 item below $570 to $190 I think. Based upon that, you could be looking at a $60/day rate reduction. Does that sound right?
 
Last edited:
Scott Crawley said:
i'm not getting you. If Jeff is correct and rates were previously artificially low, why would this have any additional effect? If rates are already that low, how would they get lower? According to the simple calculations of Rent Me! only soft demand reduces the daily rate of a $19,000 item below $570 to under $200.
Click to expand...

Rates were low in "his" market. I don't see anyone in my market working with a EPIC for $250. So the saturation in his market will soon happen in my market. Proves my point...the cameras are too cheap.
 
Andrae Palmer said:
Rates were low in "his" market. I don't see anyone in my market working with a EPIC for $250. So the saturation in his market will soon happen in my market. Proves my point...the cameras are too cheap.
Click to expand...

Too cheap to think you will make a killing renting it, that's for sure. But then as you seemed to say, you are in the service business more than the rental business, right?

Do you think that some newcomer will be providing better service than you with his newly bought Epics? What is your experience worth?

I guess you believe the supply:demand ratio for Alexa is a stronger position and you may be right for now. How will you plan for the 4k Alexa... Or are you going elsewhere?
 
Andrae Palmer said:
Rates were low in "his" market. I don't see anyone in my market working with a EPIC for $250. So the saturation in his market will soon happen in my market. Proves my point...the cameras are too cheap.
Click to expand...

Don't really agree, even though I see your point.
If you give your clients the best result, the price of the kit won't affect your rates....

And as it sounds, you do.

You still haven't commented on my resolve question...
 
Here's a thought - by a second Epic, thereby averaging down your cost, set them up as a stereo unit and specialize in shooting 3D!
 
Gunleik Groven said:
You still haven't commented on my resolve question...
Click to expand...

Yes I'm into Davinci Resolve grading... before that I was into Apple Color. I don't make any money from it... I usually just advice on RED workflow now. No one in my market can properly pay me for the service or understand the value of it.
 
Just to put some of this in perspective, about a year ago I bought an Arri 435es complete package which retailed for well over $150K for under $12K. The guy that sold it to me had purchased the entire package for over $150K and knew this massive depreciation was just part of the business. And last i looked if it was just about the image the pictures i can create on that camera once scanned to 4K DPX sequences are arguably better than any i've seen other than true 65mm IMAX imagery. Does that mean Arri's brand has gone down the crapper? I do sympathize with others that lost money in this whole deal, as for some the gear is there livelihood. I would never call them whiners or complainers or some of the other ridiculous comments that i've seen here and in other threads recently. I hate that kind of fanboy attitude, its just not going to get you anywhere. Its okay to be a fan of the company but having blind brand loyalty is only going to bite you in the ass at some point. If you want to invest in something, invest in what makes you valuable and you can never lose, that way whichever tool you decide to use will always be valuable.
I've owned all types of cameras, film, Red, cannon, nikon, Arri, sony, panasonic etc etc etc and they are all good for what they are good for while they are good. When you determine its time to put your money to better use with another brand, that is for you to determine as our original poster is basically saying. And that is as simple as it gets.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Here's a thought - by a second Epic, thereby averaging down your cost, set them up as a stereo unit and specialize in shooting 3D!
Click to expand...

He would of course need to raise his own expertise first, but that is a good point or two. Looking at your argument from another angle; 3D demand could also lessen the impact of any market saturation by absorbing some of the new units in circulation, though I wouldn't expect that to be a large consideration.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I know - just trying to help those "sky falling" folks change their perceptions a bit. :-)
Click to expand...

Sure...

Ok

RED does marketing
Sony does marketing
Canon does marketing
Panasonic does marketing
SI does marketing
Black Magic does marketing
Panavision does marketing
Arri does marketing
Etc, etc, etc

If I ever buy a cam, it is totake pictures....
Not because of marketing.

I was seriouslyburned on the hvx-200
After that: nope
Even though that is the cam I in practical monitary terms have made the most of
It was a scam

The red cams are not...
 
Andrae Palmer said:
Rates were low in "his" market. I don't see anyone in my market working with a EPIC for $250. So the saturation in his market will soon happen in my market. Proves my point...the cameras are too cheap.
Click to expand...

Maybe RED should have variable pricing for each local market so as to ensure that owners will be able to rent the gear at what you consider a good rate? It's not RED's job to manipulate prices so you can prop up your rental rate.

Andrae Palmer said:
Yes I'm into Davinci Resolve grading... before that I was into Apple Color. I don't make any money from it... I usually just advice on RED workflow now. No one in my market can properly pay me for the service or understand the value of it.
Click to expand...

What's your rate for grading?
 
Scott Crawley said:
He would of course need to raise his own expertise first, but that is a good point or two. Looking at your argument from another angle; 3D demand could also lessen the impact of any market saturation though I wouldn't expect that to be a large consideration.
Click to expand...

Even when I offer to do free 3D video projects... no one can afford it (renting the beamsplitter rig). I often offer to do free 2D indie projects... some projects we start and then after one day of shooting the project collapses. Once again completely for free. It's tough out there.

A good example is... I volunteered to do a free project... they started a fire in my studio.... heavy smoke was everywhere. The next day, I asked for them to replace the fire extinguisher... they asked me how much of it they used. lol... no kidding.
 
Andrae Palmer said:
Even when I offer to do free 3D video projects... no one can afford it (renting the beamsplitter rig). I often offer to do free 2D indie projects... some projects we start and then after one day of shooting the project collapses. Once again completely for free. It's tough out there.

A good example is... I volunteered to do a free project... they started a fire in my studio.... heavy smoke was everywhere. I asked for them to replace the fire extinguisher... they asked me how much of it they used. lol... no kidding.
Click to expand...

Hahahahahahaa

Sorry to hear that.
Sell your epics...
If i had the funds, i would buy them...
 
Here is another thing to consider: RED is just reducing the price of Epic ahead of the Dragon update a bit early. After the Dragon update Epics will cost $25,000. The original Epic pricing on the November 13, 2008 update was $28,000 so it is really only a $3,000 price drop. The price increase to $34,000 was in response to supply problems caused by the tsunami.
 
Brandon J.F. said:
What's your rate for grading?
Click to expand...
I will answer that:-)
Now, that I can work anywhere in the world remotely, I adjust the price, depending on the market. And the lowest rate is..... LA!
Why? In LA there are just to many of "Will do the job at any price, if you don't care about the quality" people, that have free-ish set ups in their bedrooms. And therefore, even though my skills didn't deteriorate, I have to drop my rates in LA. Even though one doesn't care about the resale value of a $1k software, it does affect the actual pricing for the service, based on a perception. Perception is everything.
So, I wholeheartedly agree with Andrae.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top