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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

My last RED

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Jeff Kilgroe said:
Your camera's "value" was already perceived to be in the $20K Stage 2 /3 ballpark range. Rental package / hardware day rates are determined by supply and demand in most markets. EPIC kits rent out here for $250/day. Resale value on the EPIC has been held artificially low anyway due to the number of Stage-3 people dumping cameras for around what they paid for their upgrades. This has been going on for about a year. Most every owner/operator I know around here is struggling and starving. Too much competition, not enough of that sort of work. Rental rates barely cover insurance and general maintenance. Nobody wants to hire a glorified babysitter who calls himself a DIT. Productions around here don't use DIT's. They call them DIT's, but they're almost always an intern or low-paid person who does little more than copy files. Those of us in busy markets outside of Hollywood, NYC, and similar have to find other ways to make money and carve out niches for ourselves.
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Wow! A EPIC in South Florida on the low end rents for $1000 with a basic package. Some people may go lower than that rate but it's not the usual rule. I don't just rent gear... I do photography, grip, DIT, camera operate, rent studio space... whatever I can do to make progress. Having gear that's in demand is a big part of my business though. I can't tell you how many sets I've been on and they ask me the value of the camera. Most of the time I lie... because I'm scared of getting robbed. LOL. The clients that I know are informed and more like friends than strangers. I give them a lot of value... if I wasn't... they would go elsewhere... because truly enough, finances are worth more than loyalty. The Scarlet itself started to erode my RED One MX jobs until I figured a way to counteract it. A client of mine just asked me how much will I be renting the RED One now for.. I said the same rate. I was secure in saying that... because I'm giving him more than the RED One MX when I go out on a job... I help however I can to make them achieve their goals at that RED One price.

So I agree with you... my business model is just not sitting back and sending out gear on rentals and collecting money... lol.. I wish it was that easy. I'm way more proactive than that... otherwise I would have been out of business years ago.
 
So... Our business models are more similar than it seems.

What I sell is "pristine results" not a camera...

And that is actually a bit independent of which gear I serve...
And I do serve Alexas, too... Hahahahaha

I just happen to prefer the Red. For a number of reasons.
None of them being why I cannot see why people choose alexas...

Hahahaha

Cheers!
 
Brandon J.F. said:
Do whatever you think you need to do for your business Andrae. I do hope you can calm down a bit here though. It reflects poorly on everyone, including you.
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Is calming down being silent? LOL... do you want to silence me? I think I'm pretty calm and reasoned. :-)

Gunleik Groven said:
What I sell is "pristine results" not a camera...
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I'm more of a small production hub... my clients are usually DP's and directors... it's their jobs to get pristine results. I help with workflow advice and operate more as a technician. I did take up color grading... but my local market can't afford my services.
 
Lee Dashiell said:
Lol…. In the long run, this will hurt RED, not me. I'll still be profitable with this camera but I'll think twice about buying the next RED.

Love that all of the defenders chimed in!
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Based on the many, many (did I mention MANY) comments here that support RED, something tells me mother their brand nor their bottom line will suffer from this. Except of course, for a hand full of folks like yourself who will never buy another RED - or will "think twice" or whatever. You may feel better saying it, but don't delude yourself that this move hurts RED.

(Interesting that you titled this as "My Last RED" and now you say you'll "think twice" - good for you for keeping your options open no matter how wishy-washy it makes you look! LOL)
 
If anyone is willing to humor me, what was the price of the Epic in late 2011? Didn't the price bump after on 1/1/12?

Thanks.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I find it curious how many of the Stage-2 and Stage-3 customers are highly vocal and negative about this. Seems to me the only group of people who "got screwed" are the ones that bought an EPIC-X brain over the past 6+ months or so and didn't capitalize on the $50K purchase for the free Dragon upgrade. And in that case it's self-inflicted to a large extent. Let's also not forget that if you bought the EPIC-X in the month of October, you get a $4K credit to spend on other equipment, plus if you handled it right you also got the free Dragon upgrade.
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I pre-ordered at 31K in Dec 2011 - delivered in late Feb. Dragon will cost 6K (one presumes!).

My kit is devalued by $8.5K via market forces driven by RED.

OK - fine, that's life.

I think Stage 1/2/3 owners are being more vocal (or some are) as they are used to the perceived value of their kit, having been part fo RED for longer.

For late 2011/2012 (non stage) purchasers, I don't speak for any other than myself (but a few others are posting here and there) and I do find my RED coloured glasses have lost a little of their lustre, due (in part) to the devaluation .. but also (to a larger extent) the general bashing & hammering into submission that's going on.

I actually find your last comment disturbing - as the bunch of people that bought the system in the last 6+ months were the ones basing their purchase choice on the established eco-system... and maybe didn't see this coming.

Plus there is the window from Jan 2012 to April 2012 that didn't get the 6K for free dragon.

Where they all fools, idiots and people to be derided?

Maybe.

... or maybe not.
 
Brandon J.F. said:
What you call "calm and reasoned" I see as childish and reactionary. Do what you want Andrae.
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You are free to have your opinion. I have a few myself.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
If anyone is willing to humor me, what was the price of the Epic in late 2011? Didn't the price bump after on 1/1/12?

Thanks.
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$31,000

That's what I paid for mine.

Pre-order window that cut off Dec 31.

Unit delivered end of Feb.

Other components arrived into April.
 
Jean Déraps said:
...

Elsie N why are you so insulting and demeaning towards the initial poster and other REDUsers?
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Jean, that's just my way of trying to shake up their thinking. Sometimes a verbal slap in the face focuses the mind to see the big picture and stop dwelling on something that has changed... to get people to realize that RED Spiderman is not going to come in and save them from themselves, so they may as well move on.

personal: Break's over... back to editing.
 
Andy White said:
$31,000

That's what I paid for mine.

Pre-order window that cut off Dec 31.

Unit delivered end of Feb.

Other components arrived into April.
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Thanks - I couldn't remember but thought it was $27,500 at some point. So, $31,000 then bumped to $34,500 on 1/1/12, right?
 
Elsie N said:
personal: Break's over... back to editing.
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LOL - you know you won't be able to resist checking again ;)

I only managed an hour before checking again. Currently storyboarding... my excuse is my hand aches (LOL!) after an hour of panels :)
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Thanks - I couldn't remember but thought it was $27,500 at some point. So, $31,000 then bumped to $34,500 on 1/1/12, right?
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Yup

There wasn't ever (please correct me if I'm wrong!) ever an Epic available for $27,500 to no 'stage' people. I'm in the Stage4 bunch - that was the first bunch of non RED One owners to be 'allowed' to puchase an Epic.... and the first public price that RED sold on at was 31,000 - which then changed on Jan 01st 2012.

Edit - note I am talking about cost of Brain, SSD & PL.... that was raised from the $31K to $38,500 (price before the drop)... at NAB, the sweetener was offered that any Epic purchase over $50K in value would also get a free Dragon.
 
Andy White said:
LOL - you know you won't be able to resist checking again ;)

I only managed an hour before checking again. Currently storyboarding... my excuse is my hand aches (LOL!) after an hour of panels :)
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Hahaha

Sitting and waiting for the band...

Will check furiously!
 
I don't think I am screwed, I think I am awaiting a Dragon...

Lee Dashiell said:
Well…this will more than likely be my last RED. I'm not into it anymore. I like the image, like the size, but question the company. Jim says, "You bought your camera to work, so work it". I work the hell out of my EPIC. I'm still not into having the value of my gear cut in half overnight, especially by the same company that made it.

I also have a company truck, a 2011 GMC truck with a Duramax diesel. It's dependable. I can count on it to get me just about anywhere and it also allows me to be profitable. It too has value. I can guarantee you that it will have a good trade in value next year. Why? Because GMC won't sell the 2013 for half the price of the 2011. I like that…..I'll buy another.

This "Changing the world" thing is getting out of hand. A bit of advise, when you care so much for your customers, you may want to think about your current customers rather than just the new ones.

Now, all of the RED lovers who defend RED at all cost can bash away. I'm OK with that too. I think it's a little ironic that so many people go to their defense after getting screwed by them but that's how it is.

My camera purchases in the future will more than likely be with Sony or Panasonic or Arri. The arrogance of RED is too much for me to swallow again.

Have a nice day!
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I also don't buy into the notion that this depreciation is going to translate into an overnight rental rate reduction. Rental houses will adjust rates as they see fit, but since most houses that were going to invest in Epic already have, and at the old price, prevailing rates could remain buoyant. Their cost basis has not changed, so nobody is going to adjust their rate unless they believe there is a benefit in doing so. Many things could cause that to happen, but I don't believe a cascade of falling rates is inevitable.

I don't rent my gear so don't construe my comments as an attempt at collusion, but if you have a keener insight than I, please share it. ;-)
 
Here is what bothers me about people saying the price decrease de-values the RED brand. Before RED came along the Sony F23 was over $100k and film cameras were hundreds of thousands of dollars. When RED announced the 4k RED One in 2007 for $17,500 it allowed people like us to join the ranks of the high end camera club. People who owned F23s and film cameras were horrified that they were losing jobs to a camera that cost 1/5th of what theirs did.

Of course it would make my life easier if a camera I paid $10k for cost everyone else $34k, but I as on the other end of that equation just 5 years ago so it feels hypocritical be upset about it. If you look at the history of RED from the beginning, it is more like Epic prices were inflated for the past two years due the massive cost of developing the ASIC and the supply problems caused by the tsunami.
 
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