Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

My brain is melting: 24 or 30 fps

S

Scott Pultz

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
489
Reaction score
0
Points
16
(note I'm not here to discuss 23.976 vs 24 fps, etc)

I have been filming my baby girl since she was born (about 5 months ago) in 4K at 24fps. The goal is to make montage style movies about her as she grows up. This will be for me, my family, and my online portfolio. No output to film or BluRay. However I am using lighting, post production, and other developing skills for the highest quality I can achieve.

I shot in 24 fps, perhaps naively, for that "film look" and I must say that it typically looks great. I also shot some in 30fps for slight slow motion/dreamy feel. But then I started watching some 30 fps footage at 30 fps. Bottom line is that it just looks better to me. The image is clearer with smoother motion. I'd say that 24 fps has a nice nostalgic look (perhaps well suited for her earliest months haha!), but I keep going back to 30 fps thinking that it looks nicer.

So I'm not sure what to do moving forward. Will I fall out of love with 30 fps and want that 24 fps look again? Will it seem like cheap video instead of high quality film? Will 24 fps cause my "brain to fill in the gaps and make a strong emotional connection" or is that total BS due to our conditioning? Or should I just cut my losses now and dump 24 forever and move to higher frame rates. 30 fps certainly plays better with 60 fps than 24 does, for example.

If I dump 24 fps and move to 30, one issue will be combining the footage as these frame rates don't play super well together. Fortunately most of my production will be shown linearly so I do have a nice breaking point. I could:

1) Split the project into two parts, one 24 fps and one 30+ fps
2) Combine them onto a 60 fps timeline if I want to show them as a single piece of footage, with pulldown for the 24->60 conversion

So my head is spinning a bit. Has anybody gone through this? What was your conclusion?

Right now I'm using a Blackmagic 4K with global shutter while I save up for the Dragon. The motion is really nice, but I currently only have the option of 24p and 30p.

Thank you everybody for your help. You might want to know why I'm here and not on a Blackmagic forum. Bottom line is that this forum is more professional and I plan to be a RED owner soon enough.
 
About half way through your post I was thinking you should go 48fps, but then saw the end. With that being said, you could stick with 24 then change to 48 once you have your Red. That way your timeline will stay compatible and you will have less issues as you compile the footage over the years. On the other hand, because this is mainly for you and your family, if you think 30 looks better for this project then use it. If you really are having a hard time deciding, have someone else in your family that has no idea what 24 vs 30 is look at the footage and ask them which one they prefer.
 
48 fps is interesting and fairly easily converts to 24, but how well does it convert to 60hz displays? Most home theater projectors support 24 and 60 fps but not 48 to my knowledge.

One one hand the 30 fps looks clearer and on the other hand it looks somehow cheaper. But I can't help but think this is due to conditioning that I might get over.
 
If it is for your personal use and you like the look of 30, then shoot 30. Motion is smoother for sure. I think the more you watch 30 the more difficult it will be for you to go back and watch 24.

I was recently watching the animation Big Buck Bunny. The original 1080p was done at 24. They re-rendered at 60p. I found both the 30p and 60p versions difficult to watch because I am used to 24p. I also did not enjoy the Hobbit in 48 and find the 24 much more enjoyable, but that is my personal preference.
 
Stacey Spears said:
If it is for your personal use and you like the look of 30, then shoot 30. Motion is smoother for sure. I think the more you watch 30 the more difficult it will be for you to go back and watch 24.

I was recently watching the animation Big Buck Bunny. The original 1080p was done at 24. They re-rendered at 60p. I found both the 30p and 60p versions difficult to watch because I am used to 24p. I also did not enjoy the Hobbit in 48 and find the 24 much more enjoyable, but that is my personal preference.
Click to expand...

Yes I hated the Hobbit at 48 also except for a few scenes.
 
30fps will create a more objective feeling to the footage, create a sense that the viewer is the observer. 24fps will create a more subjective feeling, that you are watching the thoughts, feeling and vision of someone else.

Because you are watching playback of your own daughter the objective point of view is likely to be more emotionally engaging - you were there, she's your daughter - reality is not just good enough, it's as good as it gets.

A non familiar viewer is possibly more likely to engage with the 24fps, because rather than capturing reality, it'll evoke your voice about what you are trying to say about your daughter with your work.

By using lighting and production tools you are already bringing a sense of tge artificial - so tge question really is are you documenting, or creatibg art. Do you want your end audience to see your skills as a subjective film maker, or an objective film maker.

Maybe there is room for both on your project, or maybe rather than a single film, you make multiple - some more objective from a vidual point of view, some more subjective.

Now, maybe my assesment is incorrect, and there is a different reason why you prefer 30fps over 24. But you should think about what that reason is, and how you can use that to improve the artistry of your work - whichever choice you end up making.
 
Great points by Craig I think.

I would also wonder about what viewing environment you have seen the footage in? Projected? Computer Monitor? 4k? etc etc... Shooting 4k and viewing 4k in a non 4k ready world is a minefield.
 
Ivan McCullough said:
Great points by Craig I think.

I would also wonder about what viewing environment you have seen the footage in? Projected? Computer Monitor? 4k? etc etc... Shooting 4k and viewing 4k in a non 4k ready world is a minefield.
Click to expand...

So far I am viewing in two ways:

1) Rendered to 2560x1066 (2.4:1) and played on my PC monitor at 60hz, which means 24->60 conversion
2) Rendered at 1920x800 and played on my JVC projector at 24hz refresh rate

(1) has more detail and (2) has better motion. Eventually I'll get a native 4K projector. My PC monitor does not support 24hz unfortunately.

I also have to remember that I'm watching this footage silently without any editing. Once it is a real production then I might be focusing less on the frame rate and more on actually enjoying it :)
 
I've been filming my kids on Red since they were born. Always at 24 fps project frame rate using variable frame rate when I want that effect. I now find I am filming them more with the BMPCC and with that I am still using 24fps. But I do think I will do a couple of films at 30 fps just to get a closer to reality look once in a while so when we do look back we have some footage that is a little closer to reality, so it has that feel of reliving it.

One thing I have learned is that sometimes we need to put the cameras down and enjoy them with the most powerful camera of all, our own eyes. I have been guilty of turning family events into film productions and occasionally I have received the rolling of the eyes from the family. The most obnoxious offense of all is when I had three movie lights going on Christmas morning. My wife tolerated it but in retrospect it may have been too much. :-)
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I've been filming my kids on Red since they were born. Always at 24 fps project frame rate using variable frame rate when I want that effect. I now find I am filming them more with the BMPCC and with that I am still using 24fps. But I do think I will do a couple of films at 30 fps just to get a closer to reality look once in a while so when we do look back we have some footage that is a little closer to reality, so it has that feel of reliving it.

One thing I have learned is that sometimes we need to put the cameras down and enjoy them with the most powerful camera of all, our own eyes. I have been guilty of turning family events into film productions and occasionally I have received the rolling of the eyes from the family. The most obnoxious offense of all is when I had three movie lights going on Christmas morning. My wife tolerated it but in retrospect it may have been too much. :-)
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I am trying to pull the camera out just 1-2 times a week rather than making it the way I experience my child. But she is changing so quickly, it is fun to see the footage of her.

To be honest, getting back and reliving the moment for me has been via audio recordings rather than video. I have made some recordings with omni-directional head mounted microphones. Listening with ear buds in a dark room puts me right back in time. Much more powerful in this respect than video footage, at least for me.
 
Yup, a minefield.

How they are rendered to those resolutions, the settings on both etc will all have their part to play.

You have mentioned a few ways you expect these clips to be viewed but I suspect that your main concern is for the unknown, ie. how these will be viewed in a few years time.

The answer is no-one knows but plenty have opinions. I suspect that in a few years 4k originated material at any frame rate from 23.98 up to 120fps will play back just fine (and as well as it can) on pretty much any bog-standard display device.

Personally I doubt I will ever have a problem looking at 24 fps.

eg, I look back at 50i VHS camcorder footage of me and my family when I was a kid and is it a problem that its 50i?, no not really, its like super 8, it looks like it does. I would not have objected if the camera was capable of progressive and higher res though! ;-)
 
Ivan you are right about the unknown, since this is a long term project. However perhaps I will break it up into years and try not to switch technology in the middle of a year so that I maintain a look for that piece. For example if I want to go for 60hz someday, it won't mix well with 24hz (unless on a 120hz timeline)
 
I am clearly in the minority here but I for one love the look of 60p. I don't have kids of my own but I've been filming my nieces with my Epic every now and then all in 60p.
 
So I did a little A/B test with my wife without telling her what was different between the clips. At first she said that they look about the same. Then she commented that the 30fps side was slightly blurrier but also easier on the eyes. This is what I have noticed as well.

I think the easy-on-the-eyes bit is because there is less strobing. I'm blaming the blurriness on my IPS monitor with a slow G2G response time. Although it is only a theory, I think that the lower framerate footage often looks sharper/more detailed on these displays since they have more of a chance to fully show themselves before the next frame comes in. Remember that the pixels don't switch instantly but rather have a transition time between one frame and the next. I also notice that when I play uncompressed timelapse footage back at 60fps instead of 24, that the 60 looks blurry in comparison.

I would have to try the footage out on a faster display or projector with black frame insertion to be sure...
 
Bobby Farokhzad said:
I am clearly in the minority here but I for one love the look of 60p. I don't have kids of my own but I've been filming my nieces with my Epic every now and then all in 60p.
Click to expand...

I would like to try this. I'm really liking the 30hz footage after watching it awhile. Going back to 24hz is a little hard to watch in comparison.

The good news is that 24 and 30 footage play okay together on a 60hz timeline. Sure there is pulldown, but that's how most 24 fps footage is viewed by most people anyway.
 
I think all things being equal the higher frame rates always look better. But if you want the 'film look' shoot at 24. But why would you want the film look? Cost is not an issue obviously as you're just shooting short clips daily which you can process easily so I see no requirement for 24. I'm shooting a feature and I'm shooting at 23.98 just to keep costs down ... if the 'critics' think it makes my film 'better' ..... so be it!
 
Variable frame rate is indeed what's up.


Stacey Spears said:
I think mixed framerate would be the way to go. There were some scenes in the Hobbit, like the grand swooping pans, looked good at the higher framerate.
Click to expand...
 
Just an update. I switched to 30p a bit ago and so far there is no going back to 24p. After getting used to the higher rate, I much prefer it.

Now I am more intrigued by 60fps :) 48 is interesting but not very compatible with 60hz displays.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top