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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

MX vs Alexa

Sanjin Jukic said:
Shooting commercials, music song spots and documentaries with 5D and 7D for TV is today very well established standard worldwide.

It isn't really though. Many places ban its use, and rightly so. Commercials? Not anymore, at least not here in Montreal, too unreliable, too many nightmare stories.
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Generally spoken, low noise is one of the features they share.

The Alexa that I have tried, does not take the iso further than 1600, but then again, that seems to be at least as sensitive as other cameras. The ratings are not really compareable. ISO the Alexa way is differently thought up. The idea is to give you more latitude at all settings.

I must check.
No specifics here as to results, because there is so many variables and differences of approach, and I am just starting post -work today, will have to shoot new tests to confirm the oddest results, and ask around me when I find odd things.

Sanjin.

If you want to look at published specs only, you don't need tests, go to Arri and RED's websites.
(Like R1 MX goes to 6000/Alexa currently goes to 1600), what to me is interesting is WHAT exactly goes on at those ratings, not that one camera goes to eleven while tho other only goes to 6...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Generally spoken, low noise is one of the features they share.

The Alexa that I have tried, does not take the iso further than 1600, but then again, that seems to be at least as sensitive as other cameras. The ratings are not really compareable. ISO the Alexa way is differently thought up. The idea is to give you more latitude at all settings.

I must check.
No specifics here as to results, because there is so many variables and differences of approach, and I am just starting post -work today, will have to shoot new tests to confirm the oddest results, and ask around me when I find odd things.

Sanjin.

If you want to look at published specs only, you don't need tests, go to Arri and RED's websites.
(Like R1 MX goes to 6000/Alexa currently goes to 1600), what to me is interesting is WHAT exactly goes on at those ratings, not that one camera goes to eleven while tho other only goes to 6...
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Gunleik,

I'll ask you again if you could provide us with MX/Alexa RAW and ProRes Alexa only short test samples that would be the best option...

BTW, I don't need camera specs just because...
 
I have said again and again that they will come, when I am done, that probably means I' won't post files for at least another week maybe 2...

I can comment on another thing, though:
Weight

It's true that the Alexa body is heavier than the RED body, but when you kit them up, I didn' notice any difference (ET EVF holder, EVF, Batterypack, Bottomplate etc etc etc), rods, matte. The Arri comes with more of what you need built in the body. That adds weight, but you need those things, which levels the things out when you are ready to fire up the RED.

I'll slap them on a weight, but I'd be surprised if they weren't within 500g the same weight.

As to batteryconsumption. I changed batteries on them on the same rate. Jarred is probably right the Arri uses more, but when you fill up the REDs taps (EVF/LCD/Monitor/Waveform was the case + sometimes a drive), I didn't notice any significant difference. Fresh Globalmediapro batteries on both...

The Arri has a tap for the big filmcamera-batteries, though - which is nice.

So that is for all practicalities: They're very similar...
 
Gunleik,

thanks again and post your test as you are finished...

Also RED you can operate almost from EVF by operator/DP side and

Alexa has divided operation on the left (limited) and AC right side (main funtions).

Alexa EVF can help you so much to custom your shots but RED EVF can do that.

And when you get new RED Bomb EVF it's gonna be lighter rig too...
 
Tim Morten said:
I don't think Sanjin is saying Arri doesn't know what they are doing: he's pointing out that it is literature from Arri themselves which makes the case for 4k.
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Important safety point: most Digital Intermediates that I know of are all being done at 2K. At the final, when the film-out is created on the Arrilaser, they uprez all the color-timed 2K data files to 4K.

Do we consider this "true" 4K? It's not, but it does look better than a 2K film-out, for a variety of reasons. Most of the biggest recent Hollywood movies of the past 6-7 years have been done this way, whether shot digitally or on film. Very, very few have had 100% 4K pipelines for the entire post process (certainly fewer than a dozen), more for reasons of accelerated post schedules than money.

Every DI firm in LA has their own "secret sauce" to improve pictures at the very end for filmout. Arri makes terrific scanners and the most widely-used film recorders in the world; they're very bright people.

I have an open mind on Alexa, but if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it lightly. As far as I'm concerned, it's just one of many options for DPs, like choosing a different paintbrush. The camera alone is not going to affect the quality of the work as much as you think. I truly believe the lenses and the lighting are just as great a part of the end result.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
I have said again and again that they will come, when I am done, that probably means I' won't post files for at least another week maybe 2...

I can comment on another thing, though:
Weight

It's true that the Alexa body is heavier than the RED body, but when you kit them up, I didn' notice any difference (ET EVF holder, EVF, Batterypack, Bottomplate etc etc etc), rods, matte. The Arri comes with more of what you need built in the body. That adds weight, but you need those things, which levels the things out when you are ready to fire up the RED.

I'll slap them on a weight, but I'd be surprised if they weren't within 500g the same weight.

As to batteryconsumption. I changed batteries on them on the same rate. Jarred is probably right the Arri uses more, but when you fill up the REDs taps (EVF/LCD/Monitor/Waveform was the case + sometimes a drive), I didn't notice any significant difference. Fresh Globalmediapro batteries on both...

The Arri has a tap for the big filmcamera-batteries, though - which is nice.

So that is for all practicalities: They're very similar...
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How are you comparing a fully loaded red to a lightly loaded alexa and saying it's using the same weight? It does not make sense unless you're comparing the same options on both. I found Alexa to use about 35% more battery for the same handheld config.

For weight, the same hand held config was about 6 pounds lighter on red one.

If the basis of your test is fundamentally skewed, then it's not very useful.
 
Mike Gross said:
How are you comparing a fully loaded red to a lightly loaded alexa and saying it's using the same weight? It does not make sense unless you're comparing the same options on both. I found Alexa to use about 35% more battery for the same handheld config.

For weight, the same hand held config was about 6 pounds lighter on red one.

If the basis of your test is fundamentally skewed, then it's not very useful.
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My test goes mostly on imagery, shooting them side by side with Master Primes in the same lighting conditions, and as I said, I'll slap them on a weight, but in the config I used them (ET everything, baseplates, batteryholders, matteboxes... filmcam...) they were very similar, and the batteries lasted similarily long with all taps filled up.

THIS will NOT be a major part of the test, but as I have a day (or two) more to shoot and some discussions to do with a couple of people before I go specific, I choose not to be specific... Whether you find it helpfull or not, is totally up to you, that's why I will post original images with the test, to let people prove me wrong! -:)

I am fine with that.

Today I have made arrangements with a host that have capacity for the files and the payload it may generate... There's all these small details -:)

I do indeed agree that one can kit the RED lighter, but in most shooting situations I am involved in, that is not the case...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Whether you find it helpfull or not, is totally up to you, that's why I will post original images with the test, to let people prove me wrong! -:)
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IMHO, it's irresponsible to make skewed comments and leave it up to everyone else to prove you wrong. You're essentially saying that your test is already biased (either for red or alexa, who knows) and you could care less.

The last thing we need is more confusion from badly done tests like the BSC one last year.
 
Wait and see... -:)

There are reasons for me not to post immedistely.

When I find odd stuff, I re-check and have even decided to re-shoot because of oddities.

And I speak with RED and Arri to get comments before posting.

Does that sound fair to you?

And I stand by what I said: Kitted up like filmcams, the weight is pretty similar...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Wait and see... -:)

There are reasons for me not to post immedistely.

When I find odd stuff, I re-check and have even decided to re-shoot because of oddities.

And I speak with RED and Arri to get comments before posting.

Does that sound fair to you?

And I stand by what I said: Kitted up like filmcams, the weight is pretty similar...
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Red and Arri are officially participating in the tests and you're doing the tests according to their recommendations? Who from each company is present at your tests?

Kitted up they way I use them as filmcams, there was a big weight difference.
 
OK... -:)

I do the tests for NRK in cooperation with Storyline.

Ask whoever when I find oddities and recheck stuff I think is weird...

Run onlinesessions at different studios with different graders..

Really... -:)
 
I believe Gunleik will give us unbiased research-like test results that we all
can exam and make judgements ourselves. Stop posting and go do your
homework, Gunleik. I really appreciate your contribution here on the forums.

Back on topic, I'm very glad to see an option like Alexa as it is very much
suited for projects with crazy fast turn-arounds. Very often I'm involved in
TVC's that are shot, edited, graded, and VFX-ed in two days. I'm not kidding,
and these are not small TVC's either. Of course, I don't do everything as I'm
just a colorist.

About the price point, what does a fitted Alexa cost? For an MX, I think it's
about...

Body: $17,500
Various accessories I need for professional shoots: about $15,000 give or take
MX upgrade: $5,750

That comes out to $40,000. Just curious to see how they really compare
since Alexa does look like it has most of the things needed for shooting in a
box. Of course, one might argue that MX is moduler, but there was a good
point in this thread about how this can be inconvinent to be moduler.

I'm just trying to think of positive pointers on Alexa as I know very well about
Red One, and I've heard enough negative ones on Alexa that I don't need to
hear about them anymore :-)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
My test goes mostly on imagery, shooting them side by side with Master Primes in the same lighting conditions, ... Whether you find it helpfull or not, is totally up to you, that's why I will post original images with the test, to let people prove me wrong! -:)
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Does it mean you'll give us to download original (short) RED R3D, Alexa ARRI RAW and Alexa Apple ProRes 422/4444 files from your test?

That would be wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Gunleik Groven said:
That is definitely the intention...

But there's still some hurdles out there. Not with the REDRAW files, though
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Yes, I know Arri doesn't like it.

But if they think that Alexa is far better than R1MX then no reason to feel any fear?????!!!!!

That's why I'm so suspicious about Alexa...
 
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