Motion Control?

[_BK]

This is very similar to a technique we use quite often when doing VFX for productions that can’t afford motion control. We just call it "poor man's motion control" and you don't have to be locked on a tripod for it to work.

First, If all the sequences you are matching are shot in the same environment, this is quite simple to do. You just need to get the camera op to duplicate the moves as closely as possible, then track each move individually in 3D space. Import the multiple solved moves into a 3D program and line them all up so the environments match up exactly. Create a master camera move from the sequence you like best and render out each sequence with that same camera. Then its just a matter of bringing the sequences into a compositing program and doing a bit of roto.

If the shot environments dont match up.. (ie. a background plate and a actor on a green screen), you just need to setup 4-6 tracking markers that are in the exact same positions in both shots. This way you still have reference points match up the 2+ 3D tracked environments.

3D tracking software is getting so good, Its almost faster to just use the "poor man's" approach than dealing with the setup times of traditional motion control onset.

 

[DeadEyesSmiling]

I was looking for inexpensive motion control rigs or alternatives and was pointed to this thread and that is a very impressive result! Would you be able to use a similar technique for a dolly move? Or perhaps a rotation shot but facing in rather than out?

-DES

 

[Jim Arthurs]

From the testing I've been doing, you are very limited the moment you move the camera in any way other than a standard pan/tilt/bank (yes, you can bank if near nodal).

Limiting to just pan/tilt/bank you can have almost total freedom in retiming your takes and independent camera motion for each take.

Regards,

 

[allano]

"3D tracking software is getting so good, Its almost faster to just use the "poor man's" approach than dealing with the setup times of traditional motion control onset"

I dont know who you have been working with but my moco setup is as fast as a normal camera setup - sometimes even faster , so its really up to the prod planning to decide where to use the extra hours involved with multilayer work.Off course it takes extra time to do several takes whether you do it with a "free" camera or a moco camera and the post use time no matter what.

I also think its a clever method "the poor mans moco" , and it can be used sometimes and sometimes you choose MoCo.Its a matter of evaluating the assignment and choose the proper tools with regards to end result , budget , work conditions etc.

But please dont say that its the end off moco - thats silly

Like saying that :"Finally we have made a video chip that gives the same looks as film emulsion" - would be the same as saying "See now we have the Mona Lisa painting on a LCD screen......."

I like people who share their inventions - respect for that Jim - If anyone has moco question please feel free

 

[Curran Giddens]

I just put in my reservation for Curt's Mirus MoCo head. $10,750 with a $750 deposit. I think the retail price will be more like $15k. The special NAB price offer ends tomorrow! Just thought I'd let you guys know....

I will actually be using Curt's Mirus head (with MoCo dolly/jib) + wireless remote, repeatable FIZ on almost every shot. As long as the actor stays within the same path for each take, I won't have to use a camera op., ac, etc. for all but the initial setup.

 

[allano]

As long as the actor stays within the same path for each take, I won't have to use a camera op., ac, etc. for all but the initial setup.

Congrats on your order on the Miro - I also want one

Most actors are good at remembering movements and marks etc. but dont expect them to be in MoCo mode - often it takes the concentration from the acting.

It is often the layer with the most dominant move you use to dictate the camera move.

With your new head you can remember many takes and use that for several versions of a move - but remember it takes time if you have to do every layer in several versions.I always recommend to do the move until your are happy - it requires a decison on set by someone but it is a fast way to work.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've reserved the Mirus head as well... The only thing that's really missing is a method to roll the camera, but Curt said they plan to have a roll add-on at some point. It's starting to look like the Mirus is going to be my primary studio head for RED and I'll be buying a more compact fluid head w/sticks (Possibly the OConnor 1030, but probably a Vinten V11) for everything else. But I guess the Mirus will be out of the studio a lot too... Lots of outdoor timelapse and moco stuff I want to shoot.

Curran sounds like he's trying to be a one-man army! I'd love to see that setup in action. We don't need no stinkin camera operators!

 

[CVB]

Jeff and Curran ... I appreciate your confidence in Mirus and in Us. It takes a couple guys like you to realize the potential of this product and blaze a trail. I can't wait to hand over some beta units to you guys in a couple months and see your response. Its funny because the reason that my Brothers and I developed Mirus was because we wanted to have the flexibility to do many things at once just as Curran suggested. Moco basically gives you time to think things thru and avoid having to choreograph dozens of things at the same instant in time.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Mirus will be my primary studio head too. I'm not even buying sticks or a mattebox until I see what View Factor comes up with since I don't have any immediate plans for using this stuff yet. Hopefully sometime next year I will have some of my own projects to work on. Maybe the MoCo dolly/jib will be ready about the same time I will be ready to use it. Right now I am just in the process of buying the equipment and starting my company. Not to mention working my ass off to pay for all this.

I can imagine just me and a non-professional actress (make that a gorgeous supermodel) in the studio. I can do a couple takes with camera moves and then pick the best one. Next step is remote FIZ until it is perfect. Finally, I can watch the the monitor and record audio while my "actress" does the take until I'm satisfied.

Good thing I don't plan on using any professional actors. The unions would never allow this sort of thing.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff and Curran ... I appreciate your confidence in Mirus and in Us.

I'm all for taking a few risks now and then and having a little pioneering spirit. Besides, it looks like you have a great product at a truly great price. Getting about 1/3rd off the price by placing a pre-order seemed too good to pass up and it almost puts the Mirus in the same price league as many of the larger, conventional fluid heads. For such a MoCo solution, this is mind-blowing. I've followed your contributions to these forums and have seen that Jim and the RED team hold you in high regard. I trust I am in good hands and look forward to using the Mirus.... Which definitely has potential to be an indispensable tool in my arsenal.

- Jeff A.K.A. Mirus reservation holder #11. :biggrin:

 

[allano]

I'm all for taking a few risks now and then and having a little pioneering spirit. :

Thank you - it have been a long process to get all the conservative DoPs , Operators , and Directors used to the "new" technique , but us pioneers will keep up the good spirit and develop machinery for you all so you can do what you imagine.

I remember first time I had to do multilayer playback in sync with the cameramove with audio in the ears of the actor doing multiple characters - you should have seen his face when he heard himself talking to himself - when he did the 7th part he was pretty much confused - and he was not even a union actor - funny stuff....

I just started having having 3D CG objects on set and its the same story - people have to get used to it - but end of day they love it.

PS : I have difficulties in getting in touch with the Miro man - are you there ?
I want to pre-order a Miro but did not get reply on my mail to you.Are you aiming at Europe also ?

 

[CVB]

Allan, We are definitely aiming at Europe. We are going to have CE and FCC testing completed in about three months. We will be shipping Mirus units around Mid-October. I'll double check our email and see if I can find your letter - We've had a spam problem that has forced us to upgrade our email filtering so its probably in there somewhere but I'll PM you with my email address just in case.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

Here's another run at the technique I originally made this thread about... the great part is setting up the exact timing between the two plates AFTER they are shot.

This was trival compared to the first example, but differs in that it's a practical real world useage example that we can all relate to. Again, ignore the roto quality... these are only tests...

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/PAN_TILT/NEAR_MISS.mov

 

[CVB]

Thats awesome Jim. Even with moco its hard to time that stuff sometimes. I didn't really notice the roto in realtime.. theres only a few frames where his legs get skinny but it looks fantastic.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

Thanks Curt, it was a great pleasure meeting you in person at NAB. You guys have some fantastic things coming out... all RED users need to support you and your projects in any way possible!

I've got one more of these quick tests left to process and share... inspired by you reminding me of the Kylie Minogue video... it involves passing off the camera from following one take to the next and next, then loops seemlessly back on itself. Well, I at least hope so...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Can you extend the preorder discount?

Can you extend the preorder discount?

Can you extend the preorder discount? It looks like you have a cool product, but I literally just noticed this whole thread and the near miss movie 5 minutes ago. I am definitely on a budget (and currently refinancing the house to do the RED purchase) and I have never done any motion control, but after looking at the near miss video and realizing the potential, I'm already thinking this would be really cool to use, but I need to read through the other information, and since the preorder form says it expires on April 30 I wonder if you would consider extending to May 30 or longer since there are probably a lot of us just finding out about it and since my RED is delayed (I'm 216 and was thinking I would have it in June but now it looks like longer) maybe I can convince you that it would make sense for you to extend the deadline..

Allan, We are definitely aiming at Europe. We are going to have CE and FCC testing completed in about three months. We will be shipping Mirus units around Mid-October. I'll double check our email and see if I can find your letter - We've had a spam problem that has forced us to upgrade our email filtering so its probably in there somewhere but I'll PM you with my email address just in case.

 

[CVB]

Aqua, just to clarify... the near miss video is a cg shot that Jim did without moco. He's got an awesome process where he can move a camera on a tripod without any synchronization whatsoever. In post he maps those shots to a sphere to create an effect similar to a motion control shot. That said... the head we are making can do the same thing and can do it much faster, the amount of post effects work is minimal (usually just a split screen or tracking roto). We have taken a few more reservations past the deadline already so I see no reason why we couldn't extend the deadline for the faithful reduser crowd - May 30th it is.. keeping the the price artificially low isn't a good way to make sure our company is here for the long haul, if we could get the raw components at a better price I'd love to keep the price where it is, unfortunately not all companies are like Red is

 

[Jaime Vallés]

That's really fantastic, Jim! An incredible feat, considering that it didn't require ILM or thousands of dollars to stage that seemingly dangerous "stunt". The applications of your technique are almost endless.

Very impressive!

 

[Andrew Benz]

...We have taken a few more reservations past the deadline already so I see no reason why we couldn't extend the deadline for the faithful reduser crowd - May 30th it is.. keeping the the price artificially low isn't a good way to make sure our company is here for the long haul, if we could get the raw components at a better price I'd love to keep the price where it is, unfortunately not all companies are like Red is

Damn, thanks alot Aqua...( I was wondering the same myself :biggrin: ). Curt , I am in... thank you very much! When are we looking at having to pay you in full? I am just trying to work all of it out without any loans.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[CVB]

Damn, thanks alot Aqua...( I was wondering the same myself :biggrin: ). Curt , I am in... thank you very much! When are we looking at having to pay you in full? I am just trying to work all of it out without any loans.

Cheers,

Andrew

It's actually not that bad. There's fully refundable deposit and the remainder is due at shipping time in October. Check out our website for the reservation form and instructions.