Most useful polar pattern(s) from an on-camera scratch mic...

[Dave Draper]

I've often read many reject the idea of recording their scratch track from an on-camera shotgun mic, presumably due to the typical polar patterns you get from shotgun mics. So, although I'm sure it's an entirely subjective subject matter; but which polar pattern(s) would you guys say is / are the most useful from an on-camera scratch mic?

 

[ericyoung]

Where've you read that? A scratch track isn't supposed to be great quality. I think the main issue with an on-camera mic is that it may pick up camera fan noise - but this is a primarily a function of proximity not polar pattern.

I've used a 416 on a Red One for scratch sound - just mount on a decent suspension mount on a noga arm so it's not sitting directly near the fan(s).

 

[Marc Wielage]

I've often read many reject the idea of recording their scratch track from an on-camera shotgun mic, presumably due to the typical polar patterns you get from shotgun mics.

To me, there are two reasons to do a scratch track:

1) as a double-secret emergency backup in case your "real" sound recorder fails

2) to help aid the editor in syncing dailies.

Software like PluralEyes does its best when it's given a very high-quality soundtrack identical to the files it's trying to sync to. If you slap a mic on the camera that's (say) 20 feet away from the actors, and then compare that to a microphone 3 feet away from the actors, they're going to sound radically different. And if the real sound recording fails, what you have left on camera will sound terrible -- particularly when it's a foot away from the camera's fan.

Microphones sound best when they're very close to the actors, not close to the camera. The best scratch track is a wireless feed from the sound mixer, using the exact same microphones being used to record the scene. This doesn't have to cost a lot of money, nor does it have to take up a lot of space on the camera. A reasonable wireless receiver can be the size of two packs of cigarettes, so it's not a big deal.

 

[Dave Draper]

Where've you read that?

Quite a few of the popular forums.

A scratch track isn't supposed to be great quality. I think the main issue with an on-camera mic is that it may pick up camera fan noise - but this is a primarily a function of proximity not polar pattern. In fact I've used a 416 on a Red One for scratch sound - just mount on a decent suspension mount on a noga arm so it's not sitting directly near the fan(s).

One of the other reasons I'm interested in polar patterns and on-camera scratch mics, is because I'd like to keep the form factor of the rig as compact as I can, as shotgun mics can be 12+ inches long (especially if you want them to have their own power source). Could one get away with using a much shorter mic -- such as the RODE NT5 or M5 Condenser Microphone, for example -- and still get a good "reference" track to sync from, as well as capture those moments you may miss on your external set up?

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

One of the other reasons I'm interested in polar patterns and on-camera scratch mics, is because I'd like to keep the form factor of the rig as compact as I can...

me too,
so i plug small mike into mic one, as a backup for a scratch, and wireless out from the recorder into the mic two, and that is a really good and usable, no sync needed sound;
as on camera mike i wouldn't recommend you use small condensers as NT5, or Audix, they're good only when really close to the subject, i'd use short shotgun microphone, the shortest i know - is Audio Technica 875R - small and very sensitive shotgun microphone, i am always having troubles telling it from 10x price point CS3e, but i am not an audiophile

 

[Dave Draper]

me too,
so i plug small mike into mic one, as a backup for a scratch, and wireless out from the recorder into the mic two, and that is a really good and usable, no sync needed sound;
as on camera mike i wouldn't recommend you use small condensers as NT5, or Audix, they're good only when really close to the subject, i'd use short shotgun microphone, the shortest i know - is Audio Technica 875R - small and very sensitive shotgun microphone, i am always having troubles telling it from 10x price point CS3e, but i am not an audiophile

Many thanks for the suggestion, Paramon.

OK, so the Audio Technica 875R is a Gradient Condenser Microphone, and the RODE NT5 and M5 are Cardioid Condenser Microphones. Out of interest; why would the Gradient polar pattern of the 875R be better over the Cardioid polar pattern of the NT5 and M5 for this particular application?

In retrospect, I suppose what we're after is a microphone similar to one you may find in a prosumer camcorder, such as an EX1, which I believe had a built-in stereo electret condenser microphone.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

Out of interest; why would the Gradient polar pattern of the 875R be better over the Cardioid polar pattern of the NT5 and M5 for this particular application?

because it sounds better, mostly because shotguns have much better off axis rejection, any decent microphone sounds great when it's one foot from the source, but it's different when the mike is on camera, 5, 10 feet away, sometimes even further, and lots of stuff is going on off frame;
i still have that EX1 in my basement, and i could shoot you a test to see how it's native mic compares to shotgun, or cardioid, or hyper, but i am sure you'll find plenty of those on youtube;
but no matter what you see, or hear in somebody's tests, please do your own tests, always;

 

[PC Greene]

Hyper cardioid w/ rejection side pointed towards camera to minimize camera noise.

PCG

 

[Dave Blackham]

Hyper cardioid w/ rejection side pointed towards camera to minimize camera noise.

PCG

Exactly right for polar pattern.

But anyone answer this. Work out where is the very best placement for the microphone. Mark the spot then insist the camera stay in that exact position or any other position the sound recordist deems is the best mic position for him/her to place their mics.

After filming (which will be very difficult) tell us here what the DoP or director has to say about the shots and limitations the recordist placed them under.