More Rumors about a New Canon Prosumer Cinema Camera

[Tom Lowe]

From Canonrumors today:

This is a continuation of previous posts here & here
Here is some info from the latest revision as of last week on the Pro Camera

Product:

Dual ASIC Components for real time 12MP Scaling to 1080p 60-30-24 4:2:2 color space with uncompressed 4:4:4 over optional attachment module.
Spec shows CMOS sensor capable of windowed mode for use with large 20x video zooms. 1/3 windowed mode will yield 1080p without binning.

....

Overcrank will be limited to 60p, nothing higher [sic] with a 48p option.

No global shutter for the CMOS. It will offer better performance than any competing product.

Timelapse feature recorded 4:4:4 12.1MP on JPEG sequences to SD card. Programmable from one frame a minute to one hour.

Programmable settings can be transferred on SD card for several cameras.

Cinema, WB and K options can be set by SD also.

Quicktime Wrapper format like that in the 5D Mark II.

Sensitivity down to 1.5 lux with excellent noise performance. Still in testing!

Dual phantom power XLR 48khz 24bit inputs. 4 XLR with optional module.

Work is being done simultaneously on a portable 2/3 fixed lens version. Sensor will be smaller to accommodate a 14x zoom.

5D Mark II might get Av mode but not shutter control in video. Rumor I’ve heard twice now.

The "uncompressed 4:4:4 over optional attachment module" was mentioned earlier to shoot some kind of RAW footage.

The timelapse feature appears, to me, to be incorrect. The fastest interval must be a lot closer to 1s than 1 minute.

 

[RougeDP]

There's a company in Dublin, Ireland coming out with a Nikon hackjob that does something similar.

 

[chuck colburn]

Mayby Canon willl sell Jim some of those 14 to 1 zooms for his new 2/3" camera. After all he probally bought every still camera lens they ever made. lol

 

[Vico Martin]

Wow!

PL mount??
can they build a 4:4:4 module from a Bayer sensor signal???

Canon is abe to make an amazing RAW camera... but can they do it in time and price during this year?

I think Jim is the first to understand the importance of software development in this game. Canon can build amazing processors but... they need a codec.

 

[Jaime Vallés]

I think Jim is the first to understand the importance of software development in this game. Canon can build amazing processors but... they need a codec.

Exactly. RED has REDcode RAW, which slays anything else out there right now. If Canon is smart, they'll license Cineform RAW. Even direct recording to something like ProRes 4:2:2 would be good enough to be a serious competitor for the indie filmmaker's dollar.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Canon has the R&D power and technology to pull something like this off if they really want to. Previously -- before Jannard put his boot up their ass -- they just had no motivation to do it and no competition breathing down their neck.

But Canon has amazing technology. Their 5D2 is absolutely RIDICULOUS with its low-light performance in still mode.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

uncompressed vs. H.264

uncompressed vs. H.264

Uncompressed will be a big improvement over H.264. How much will the uncompressed system cost?

My Brother got a small Canon camera that shoots 1280x720@30fps to do some tests with.

The single frame results look very good projected off the 35mm print test strips, even more so if you under-expose 1/3 stop and grade like film, then do a filmout to 35mm print stock.

But when in motion the H.264 has very heavy blocking artifacts if you rase the contrast in grading.

If you want to try it and see how it looks set up your 35mm animation camera with a ROSCO #22 filter, expose using my DANCINEL.EXE (tm) using three gamma spread mode, 45 to 60 second delay per exposure off an 1600x1200 LCD screen (about 120 to 180 seconds total for exposure at T/2.8).

I recomend setting the exposure to center rather than under when you can since the range you can get away with on H.264 recording is very limited. Also you need to use good 30 to 24fps frame rate conversion, and even so the motion does not seem smooth so lock the camera down and have the actors move as little as possable within the frame.

The Workflow steps are:

1) Shoot H.264 in the Canon camera.

2) Convert the H.264 to uncompressed AVI

3) Use VirtualDub to convert the uncompressed AVI into BMP frames and to make a WAV of the audio.

4) Use my DANCAD87.EXE (tm) to Grade resize to 1600x1200 (1600x900 letterboxed into 1600x1200) and mix.

5) Use DANCINEL.EXE (tm) to output to print stock, if you want sound make a sound negative with the WAV and contact print that onto the exposed print stock etc. Use ROSCO #22 filter to start with. You can also use a 2048x1536 CRT monitor, but the LCD may work out better since it is maybe more stable. The ACME animation motor needs to be hooked to the parallel port with two solid state relays, one for single frame advance and one for motor power, the reverse switch can be worked by you for each pass of the three since the program puts up a message for you to reverse the motor switch.

If your animation camera has B&H pins be sure to order B&H Vision color print stock, rather than KS to get a steady image. This workflow is much like the one for RED ONE, except for RED ONE you use REDCINE to convert the R3D into TIF frames.

 

[Petr Dvorak]

work Canon, work :sifone:

 

[Dan Hudgins]

24fps!

24fps!

I hope they (and every other camera maker) get true 24fps into their cameras, the H.264 artifact issues might not be a deal killer, but needing to use 30 to 24fps conversion probably is.

My Brother was excited by how good the single frame images looked after grading and printing out on film, but when projected at speed the motion artifacts were just too bad to make it a serious option for much else than a few pickup shots, maybe.

It might be more usable with better frame rate conversion, but if you look at the single 30fps frames they seem to hold two images, meaning that the sensor is running at maybe 60fps (or more?), and each of the 30 output frames in some kind of blending of the sensor frame pairs. You can see this if you have something high contrast move quickly, in the case of what we shot my Brother's eyeglasses frames, you can see two sharp images with blur between them, very odd. At first I though it was an effect of 60Hz lighting, but we can see it in outdoors shots as well, so there is some kind of processing going on inside the camera that affects the motion blur in odd ways.

 

[ericyoung]

Which small Canon camera? HV20? Believe that was some sort of "emulation" mode. Apparently the HV40 has "true" 24/25p.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Exactly. RED has REDcode RAW, which slays anything else out there right now. If Canon is smart, they'll license Cineform RAW. Even direct recording to something like ProRes 4:2:2 would be good enough to be a serious competitor for the indie filmmaker's dollar.

Well the rumor is that this new Canon Cinema Camera will do 4:2:2 1080p or 2K in-camera, with an optional attached "RAW Recorder" that captures (I guess) 12MP RAW footage somehow off the APS-C sized sensor.

If the 4:2:2 1080p/2K onboard can overcrank to 48fps or 60fps, the camera will be a huge seller, IMO. If Canon ignores overcranking, they will suffer a major loss in potential sales.

Then again, since it seems likely that Scarlet will come out first, Canon will be playing catch up and might have to compete at prices that will be painful for them.

 

[Jaime Vallés]

Then again, since it seems likely that Scarlet will come out first, Canon will be playing catch up and might have to compete at prices that will be painful for them.

Agreed. The $7000 5K Scarlet S35 brain is (according to current estimates) the first one to become available this Summer. If Canon wants to compete in that price range with a 35mm sensor camera, they're going to have a very uphill battle against Scarlet.

I'm sure Jim & Co. are watching this very closely, though!

 

[Zack Birlew]

Well, you can have a Scarlet in an all-in-one formfactor or you can bring along Canon's camera, I assume XL-like, with its oxygen tank, er, I mean RAW recorder on wheels.

Seriously, I've given up on Canon. The XL1S was the best thing they've done for the filmmaking world but then they started messing things up after that. Canceling the 3D lens, taking FOREVER for an XL2, hiking up the price on all of their HD models, crippling the HV20 so badly, dropping the ball with the 5D Mark II with 30P and h.264, giving everyone and their mother a big "F-U" with the 20P 1080P mode, and now this *RUMORED* RAW recorder deal that will have to be lugged along with whatever the heck the camera turns out to be. It's just ridiculous!

 

[Tom Lowe]

Zack, believe me, we all share your skepticism about Canon!

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Sd780 is

Sd780 is

Which small Canon camera?

It was the SD780 IS shooting 1280x720 @ 30fps H.264

The positive things are:

1) Lens is very good for the cost.

2) Overall color and resolution are better than camcorders I have seen.

3) Shoots with very good white balance under vapor lights and in low light. (Tends to link red and green and show blue darker, I was able to grade that out but the noise comes up too much maybe.)

4) Light weight and shoots anywhere with normal lighting.

5) Auto iris holds when only small changes in the frame are made, so you can shot with it even though it does not lock the exposure.

6) Easy to underexpose to hold the highlights.

The Negative things are:

1) H.264 limits the amount of grading you can do without very bad noise and blocking artifacts showing up.

2) Conversion from 30fps to 24fps a major problem that cannot be resolved well.

3) Motion does not seem smooth even at 30fps(?) in the resulting AVI frames. This may be a Windows computer issue, converting the H.264 to uncompressed AVI, does anyone else have problems getting smooth motion in the resulting AVI files with their H.264 source files? Playing back SD from the camera using the NTSC cable the motion looks better than in the software conversion, but that is no help because the SD output is not usefull for Digital Cinema frame file creation... This motion issue needs more looking into.

4) H.264 shows some blocking and noise even in daylight shots in areas of low detail.

5) Although exposure holds well for some shots it will change if the subject fills much of the frame and moves to change the overall brightness.


The biggest issue is the un-smooth motion, this would limit it very much for filmmaking, but if you were going direct to DVD or Blu-Ray it might be more useful since the image quality for non-moving subjects is quite good for the size and cost of the camera.

It seems odd that Canon is not making things that are actually useful, it does not seem to be such an issue to add exposure lock and 24fps to the camera since it does everything else...

Overall I would say that REDCODE is lightyears better than H.264 as a recording compression format, if Canon keeps with H.264 for a recording compression format they are just making more almost useless cameras?

I am not sure that the higher cost Canon cameras would be much better since the H.264 and 30fps issues will still be there, and they are problems that cannot be resolved well no mater what you do in post, maybe. It's too bad, because other than the noise and motion the images we shot look quite good projected from the 35mm movie film print, more filmlike after grading than camcorder footage I have seen before.

 

[ericyoung]

A compact stills camera for motion? Well maybe the new Panasonic Lumix GH-1, but I'm surprised this Canon did as well as it did!

 

[Craig Ryan]

Hmm...I wonder how this will compete with RED if at all...

If they price this RIGHT... at NO MORE than $5k..they can fill the gap between Scarlet 2/3" and Scarlet S35. It would be a good match I think...and of course, if they get the codec right.

This is good new though if its true; means they are waking up as RED puts it.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Well it sounds to me like perhaps without the external recorder the new Canon might squeeze in between 2/3 Scarlet and S35 Scarlet, but once you tack on the RAW recorder, I cannot imagine the Canon coming in with a really low price.

 

[Roberto B]

Agreed. The $7000 5K Scarlet S35 brain is (according to current estimates) the first one to become available this Summer.

summer?.. do you really really really think so?.. today is may!!