Monstro Speculation Thread

[Pawel Achtel]

Now if you think about it. What was the subject of discussion just before Jim took a couple of days off, before announcing the new sensor?

Johlan

Jim (and others) got sick and tired of repeating that this feature will not be in Red One and I fully agree and understand the reasons for it. I also accept that for most users (me included) this feature does not bring any additional value. It is something many (most?) people want, but not necessarily need it.

However, if you put it the context of high frame rates, you would need to think how to reduce I/O data rate to your storage. One way is to reduce DR, another is to increase compression and the third one is to reduce the resolution. If you reduce the resolution, then it is best done by a dedicated, high quality processor, just like Canon did with sRaw. In this context, the scaling makes sense in certain applications (high speed). Thus, I expect this feature would be made optional. If you want it, you pay, say 2 grand, and you plug it in. Currently Red does not have the ability to take real advantage of such feature, but the new (higher resolution and likely faster frame rate) sensor would. It is different.

This is of course speculation, not a feature request or complaint.

Personally, I probably would not get this option, but many other users probably would. So, as a speculation, my vote is that Jim will make it as an option for Monstro sensor and, in some uses, I think it would be compelling.

 

[Vico Martin]

-S35
-500ASA
-5k
-120 Fps at 4K
-Low Low Low Noise al Low Low Low Light
-A magic sensor that allows 1080P Preview ;-)

And the Big Quiestion Hummmm - 3000$-5000$ Update

 

[ericyoung]

Works well with tungsten too.

Better infra-red filter.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Hmm... If it is an upgrade for both RedOne and Epic, wouldn't that imply a S35 sensor size?

 

[subfreq]

Seeing as you have to jump your speculation past what the X is going to bring it's quite hard but if the Monstro is going ot bridge the gap to film I would think you might see;

Not low noise but NO NOISE.
Camera being rated down to 200 but able to hold as it does up to 500.

Whether it's 5k, 8k or beyond is secondary to DR, Noise and camera rating. If it's capture is the same effective scanned resolution of a 35mm frame, noise free and with the same DR then the sensor will have bridged the gap.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

MY hopes:

Forget more rez. Give me a bit more if you can/ want but I am really not concerned.

Give me:
1) A true progressive shutter. (sensor skew)

2) Right now I see 9ish (depending on the situation) stops of DR (latitude) that I will use, give me more. You can do this by cleaning up noise. Since the Misterium X sensor has already been touted as 100mps then one can assume less compression and there for less noise. Our 2010 friend can be assumed to push this further. This is where REZ can be brought back in and I would ask for it. If we over sample and then crunch back down to 4k then noise is less noticeable.

3) Higher frame rates for the higher rez. I don't mind a windowed sensor for lower rez. It is cleaner.

4) maybe the ability to pull two exposures out of the same frame. Set a 360 shutter and pull an exposure at 180 and 360. = HDR

5) Making the Blue channel more robust.

Really the trick to "hit film with a right hook" is:
Shutter (sensor skew)
Compression
DR

Some goodies would be:

Taking care of any of the little random things that pop up from time to time:
"Red Tail lights"
"IR"
Odd flares

oh and 32 bit space would be KILLER!

thats my 10 cents

 

[Steve Murray]

Why stick to s35mm when Red One and Epic already do this? Monstro is supposed to break all the rules when it comes to size and resolution.

My guess is 65mm size sensor or IMAX. Resolution will be 6 or 8K.

Tom,

I know you want to make your Imax film(s) but.....

If EPIC is S35mm then any upgrade would have to be S35mm just to fit in the camera and for everything to work properly, yes?

I would rather have higher frame rates and greater dynamic range than a big-ass sensor. S35mm if fine with me and really is more useful across the board for all lenses and accessories that we already have. I think 5 or 6K is enough for 90% of us.

Now if Jim gets more sleep perhaps he will annouce another new camera that is 65mm size, but that will have limited use, IMHO.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Why are you guys so stuck on S35mm? I find this to be a little hard to understand. Epic is already going to push the boundries of the S35mm format. If you want more DR and framerates, do it with Epic! That camera is still in the design stages, as Jim has pointed out recently.

I don't see why the new Monstro technology could not be applied to Epic in 2010 or whatever as an upgrade.

Anyway, that format size is a relic of chemical film. Why tie ourselves to the past?... to what is essentially a "1.6 crop" of a full-frame 35mm still negative? In the still world, an APS-C size sensor is considered to be a major compromise, marketed mainly to beginners and prosumers.

It's time to break with the past and rekindle the dream of the guys who used to shoot on Vista Vision, 65mm, and all the other spectacular large widescreen formats. Remember, movies like those were shot because TV was eating Hollywood's lunch. Now the industry is once again desperately trying to figure out how to keep people in theaters, rather than watching movies in 1080p at home. Having a larger format like a Vista Vision or 65mm at 8K is one way to make the theater experience that much more epic and unique.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Baclkit CMOS
Imax sensor size with Stereosopic Live Broadcasting Anamorphic HDR Capable

For new camera or other option uprades that work with Monstro
RAW
Fiber Optic/ Silicon Photonics tech.
Don't forget Night Vision/Heat Vision, picks up All Wavelengths
Best Audio!:gun:

Is there anything Im missing?:greedy:

 

[Barry Gregg]

With a bigger sensor all our Red lenses will be useless to us. We are putting $30,000 into Red glass. Thanks, but I'd like to be able to use that glass without going to a 2k windowed if the Monstro is a larger sensor.

What do you gain with a physically larger sensor except even less depth of field? It pretty tough to keep the image sharp now if you are shooting at T4.0 on a long lens. I can't see the point of a larger sensor if the s35 size can archive more DR and more resolution and less noise at high ISO.

 

[Johan Lindgren]

Jim (and others) got sick and tired of repeating that this feature will not be in Red One and I fully agree and understand the reasons for it. I also accept that for most users (me included) this feature does not bring any additional value. It is something many (most?) people want, but not necessarily need it.

Yeah I know that people say they want scaled half res sensor. And sure Jim could fix it. BUT Only reason people want this is so that they can get around problems much like those you described in your post, in order to get full FOV slomo.
Its simply better just to ask for that. Let The RED team work things out. In two years time things WILL improve around the camera, memory will boost in speed and so on.

As for EPIC, one thing we know is that Jim stated it to be a no compromise production unit. I think all the reasons for sRAW reads compromise all over.

Johlan

 

[Simon Baechler]

Having a larger format like a Vista Vision or 65mm at 8K is one way to make the theater experience that much more epic and unique.

I disagree. Having good scripts and actors will make the theater experience epic. Not the recording format.
Lord of the Rings was done in 2K and even on the 32'x86' screen of the cinerama dome didn't look "low-res".

I've seen HVX200 footage that looked better than some RED footage because the DP knew what he was doing. Don't get caught up in the resolution factor. It's just one of many that make a good image. Lighting, art direction and color grading are much more important than resolution.

And be aware that pulling focus on 65mm or IMAX is so much more difficult. And there are only a handful of 65mm lens sets out there. Half of them Panamount.

I mostly expect much more latitude from the new sensor. Prototype sensors with 20 stops and more have been around for years. They can expose each pixel separately. Connected to a smart image processor you can get a huge lattitude out of it.

 

[Tom Lowe]

With a bigger sensor all our Red lenses will be useless to us. We are putting $30,000 into Red glass. Thanks, but I'd like to be able to use that glass without going to a 2k windowed if the Monstro is a larger sensor.

What do you gain with a physically larger sensor except even less depth of field? It pretty tough to keep the image sharp now if you are shooting at T4.0 on a long lens. I can't see the point of a larger sensor if the s35 size can archive more DR and more resolution and less noise at high ISO.

Why would Epic or Red One be obsolete? Both are upgradeable. If DR, framerates, etc, can be improved, they will be. We already have two cameras at S35mm. There will be a natural upgrade path as sensors improve.

Epic, BTW, will already be running up against some limits in terms of how many photosites you can cram onto a S35mm sensor. Depending on the aspect ratio, Jim will already be packing the pixels in like sardines to make "5K".

By making a much larger sensor you could dramatically increase resolution while at the same time increasing light sensitivity. At some point, S35mm simply runs out of real estate. Why do you think all serious DSLR shooters are working with "full frame," Vista-Vision sized sensors rather than S35mm "cine" or "cropped" 35mm?

 

[Tom Lowe]

I disagree. Having good scripts and actors will make the theater experience epic. Not the recording format.
Lord of the Rings was done in 2K and even on the 32'x86' screen of the cinerama dome didn't look "low-res".

I've seen HVX200 footage that looked better than some RED footage because the DP knew what he was doing. Don't get caught up in the resolution factor. It's just one of many that make a good image. Lighting, art direction and color grading are much more important than resolution.

Thanks. We've all be getting lectured here for years on how "resolution doesn't make your actors better." No offense, but this lecture was old 2 years ago. No one is saying that.

 

[marsRover]

IMAX has nothing to do with with the size of the capture medium. It's the projection system(ie. screen size, etc). If you want to transfer your super-8 films, you could watch them in IMAX. 65mm and VV obviously give you better images for the size but a s35 sensor with 12k resolution or whatever could do the same thing. And you would have a lot more cine lenses to use.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Epic Mysterium X Sensor made also for Scarlet, Monstro will do the same even if it were to take another camera for 70mm size or whatever. Red will make new lenses also, if this were to happen.:biggrin:

 

[Barry Gregg]

Why would Epic or Red One be obsolete? Both are upgradeable. If DR, framerates, etc, can be improved, they will be. We already have two cameras at S35mm. There will be a natural upgrade path as sensors improve.

I didn't mean the camera body, I meant the lenses. With a larger sensor the lenses no longer cover the sensor real estate. We are spending $30k on lenses that we would like to have a future use for.

In the old day I shot 8x10 still film. At f64 you get about an inch of depth of field with a medium close-up (product shot). It was a huge problem to keep the subject in focus. I really don't want to be facing that problem with a Red camera.

 

[Robin Balas]

...
I mostly expect much more latitude from the new sensor. Prototype sensors with 20 stops and more have been around for years. They can expose each pixel separately. Connected to a smart image processor you can get a huge lattitude out of it.

Yes and you achieve a totally f**ked up 4th dimension as they expose the sensels differently buy applying a shorter exposure time pr. pixel/sensel. That will introduce all kinds of artifacts from non-static objects, especially poorly lit ones vs. brightly lit ones. This will be very visible in motion film but also in still photography when applying longer shutterspeeds.
There is NO free lunch towards increased DR, it is damned hard work and directly the opposite to having a small sensor (S35) and/or high res (5K+) - hence small real estate pr. pixel/sensel. The best approach, still with visible artifacts, are in my opinion fuji film SR sensors as used in S3 and S5 dSLR cameras using two sets of sensors on the same chip (6MP+6MP) with a different sensitivity (3.5-4 stops) and merging them either in camera or in post. But you get this crazy mid tone noise bands, then a clean lower to dark region and noise again in the shadows - it looks strange when you push it. But it gets you 13.5stops of DR as opposed to the 9-9.5 stops the other guys produce. Having a larger difference than 3.5 stops will produce more visible noise in the transition area between the two chips which also isn't perfectly aligned in the bayer, so edge artifacts do occur - but not very frequently. Ref.: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0301/03012202fujisuperccdsr.asp
20 stops of DR is like going from 4K to 2048K resolution, quite a feat if you ask me. You got to store those electrons somewhere for the full time of the exposure if you are to avoid motion artifacts. Storing 20 stops of DR on neighboring sensels is simply not achievable as the charge will leak across as soon as anything burns out by a small amount. CCD streaks is this.
Let the guys who knows what to do come up with the definition of state-of-the-art instead of going totally Star Trek in your expectations.
LOG math vs. linear values is a bit*h to handle and DR is the practical excercise that proves this.
MHO

 

[JD Holloway]

Looking for a through-put split to a ram box for 1000fps phantom speed. By the time it comes out Ram will have dropped by 1/4 to 1/8th in price. I'm for true 35 mm size sensor. 65 mm has no appeal to me. For me imax is about landscapes (of all forms) and that means a very deep depth of field. You fight that with the neg size. I'd like to see a 24 meg image (thinking new canon eos'ish) stepped down to 8K max or true 4K for low noise.
Low noise = DR.

Ultra High speed.
Very Low noise.
Reasonable sensitivity (akin to low noise)
Kick ass post workflow....
Doesn't make us drop 40 grand in glass cuz we have to.
Knows how to make a great sandwich?

 

[David Wyatt]

To truly take on 35mm cameras it's going to have to at least be able to achieve 150 fps in 4K and have a much bigger dynamic range then the Red One currently has. I think maybe we should call this camera the "Jesus camera" like the iPhone was the "Jesus phone" :innocent: