Modular Dragon OLPF sneak peak

[Ben Scott]

I agree to an extent, but I also fundamentally believe that it's not up to us to protect RED, they know a lot more about where they are going as a company than we do.

Battistella

In no small part due to listening to their users on here

It's not protecting Red so much as protecting myself, having bought into the vision/gear.

 

[David Battistella]

In no small part due to listening to their users on here

It's not protecting Red so much as protecting myself, having bought into the vision/gear.

they've ve given and continue to create options for everybody. When the time comes you can decide which OLPF (or three) are right for you. That's one way you can protect yourself. But, I get that it's not for everybody.

Battistella

 

[Bob Gundu]

That would be a big shame to many on RU. I guess distributing a new more balanced OLPF is not an easy choice to make.

Good luck to Red in the rental market with the OLPF strategy. They are going to need it.

Lets look back a few months ago when all hell broke loose when some felt that the roll-off was not as good as Alexa? And some felt that the rental market will always choose Alexa because of this only. Well RED greatly improved the rolloff and made the colour even better. In my opinion they made the right choice. And going forward I'm sure RED will tweak the bottom end of that spectrum too. To get the most of any situation is to know your tools. With knowledge, you can plan and compensate. There are plenty of established DPs using Dragon without complaints. If you are concerned about all the variables, I say stick with the new OLPF and get up to speed on getting the best from it. It can only get better after that.

 

[Nick Morrison]

That would be a big shame to many on RU. I guess distributing a new more balanced OLPF is not an easy choice to make.

Good luck to Red in the rental market with the OLPF strategy. They are going to need it.

Remember, we haven't seen in the IN-CAMERA firmware fix yet. Once that happens, and the RED specks disappear, many may suddenly be very, very happy with the current OLPF and it's abundant highlight roll-off.

 

[Ben Scott]

they've ve given and continue to create options for everybody. When the time comes you can decide which OLPF (or three) are right for you. That's one way you can protect yourself. But, I get that it's not for everybody.

Battistella

Don't get me wrong. As an owner I really welcome options like this.

But for the wider market - and in light of Red already having a reputation for being difficult to work with (whether fairly or not) among those who don't do it on a regular basis - this needs to be made idiot proof.

 

[David Battistella]

Lets look back a few months ago when all hell broke loose when some felt that the roll-off was not as good as Alexa? And some felt that the rental market will always choose Alexa because of this only. Well RED greatly improved the rolloff and made the colour even better. In my opinion they made the right choice. And going forward I'm sure RED will tweak the bottom end of that spectrum too. To get the most of any situation is to know your tools. With knowledge, you can plan and compensate. There are plenty of established DPs using Dragon without complaints. If you are concerned about all the variables, I say stick with the new OLPF and get up to speed on getting the best from it. It can only get better after that.

Plus 1 on this Bob. Great advice. Of course there will always be finger pointing regardless.

Battistella

 

[David Battistella]

Don't get me wrong. As an owner I really welcome options like this.

But for the wider market - and in light of Red already having a reputation for being difficult to work with (whether fairly or not) among those who don't do it on a regular basis - this needs to be made idiot proof.

iPhones are idiot proof. Professional cinematography devices, f1 race cars, fighter jets, stuff like that are for expert operators and people who want to go beyond "news type" efp camera. I do think that some things need to be simplified, but this is not a camcorder (Sony's term for some of their professional gear, not mine) with a lot of auto functions. You're meant to understand a bit about how to use it.

those seeking a more automated type system are best to go with that style of camera or adapt this one to that style (which many have done when needed)

so I'm not one for RED dumbing things down too much.

battistella

 

[Ben Scott]

Idiot-proofing doesn't have to limit options. Colour coding the various types or having something easily identifiable would/could save a lot of time and heartache when checking on set.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

But for the wider market - and in light of Red already having a reputation for being difficult to work with (whether fairly or not) among those who don't do it on a regular basis

Exactly. Its not even about idiots - its about people with limited time. Opperating Red already is a labor of love. Its not about dumbing down. Its about increasing complexity in careful ways.

I do not believe the "standard" OLPF should be as biased to the highlights in the way the 2nd OLPF is. But, If the current OLPF really is the standard then for the sake of less confusion lets hope they do NOT make one later that is considered better for standard shooting. My guess is they WILL make a better all round OLPF and the current one is standard...for now.

I guess users who want to tinker via OLPFs have trouble seeing that this is a recipe for confusion to a lot of users. And no - people who want the camera to come as standard with a less top end biased olpf do NOT think Reds are camcorders. How silly.

 

[David Battistella]

Idiot-proofing doesn't have to limit options. Colour coding the various types or having something easily identifiable would/could save a lot of time and heartache when checking on set.

Agree. Like firmware. Beta should be red coloring in menus etc and release build should be green in color.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Dragon OLPF V2 with DEB is presumably the "standard". DPs that don't want to dance with any potential chroma noise can rate at 400ISO and with DEB in the mix they should be good to go. How is that too complicated? I reject the idea that Dragon OLPF V2 is a "problem" that needs fixing. As a technically minded shooter I love the idea of being able to more precisely craft specific looks via the swappable OLPF option, but if the rental houses just want to stick with the shipping, fixed OLPF they can. Where's the victim here?

If the next few months (years?) see serious advancements in OLPF performance metrics then RED might decide to roll out a new "standard" OLPF with a unique name, maybe a badge on the body to ID it, etc. In the meantime they are looking seriously at offering us some powerful options for control over a key part of the optical path - excuse me if I'm really excited about that.

Cheers - #19

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Revisionist history

Revisionist history

Top end biased vs low end biased is a specious argument in my book. The Dragon OLPF V1 had serious magenta flares/halos that needed to be dealt with. Pretending that RED woke up one morning and decided highlight roll off was more important so they'd make a new OLPF that ate an extra stop makes no sense.

People who were focused on being able to rate at 2,000ISO with minimal noise are understandably frustrated that the strength of OLPF needed to control anomalies made that untenable. You're allowed to be ticked off and say so, this is a internet forum after all. Just don't rewrite history to further justify your anger, it only makes your legitimate gripes look like sour grapes.

The Dragon sensor is pushing the envelope of Bayer CFA on CMOS for motion capture. Like most engineering challenges, once you improve one element of the system then the other elements can become the limiting factor. To get the best out of the Dragon sensor every other part of the system needs to "keep up" and we are all seeing just how tricky it is to make a filter stack that's up to the task.

Cheers - #19

 

[Stacey Spears]

Exactly - this is the OLPF I believe, that if it had been released on day one, we would NOT even be discussing swappable OLPFs.

Red has been discussing swappable OLPFs since NAB 2011 if not longer. There are plenty of creative reasons to offer more such as IR and no-LP. The image below included different levels of ND built-in.

 

[David Battistella]

To get the best out of the Dragon sensor every other part of the system needs to "keep up" and we are all seeing just how tricky it is to make a filter stack that's up to the task.

Cheers - #19

Yet folks like to ignore physics and think ordering up an OLPF is like ordering a Big Mac.


If I left my answer above as is then, the next smartie reply might be: but "others do it" to which the answer is, each sensor Is different, that requires it's own fine tuning. you could not use an OLPF from one sensor in another camera.

iE, the MX and dragon OLPFs are different. Some combos do one thing, some do another and the "balance" everyone keeps talking about is coming from those who have no comprehension of the process, but prefer to somehow insinuate that red is inept or need to fix something.

Battistella

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Red has been discussing swappable OLPFs since NAB 2011 if not longer. There are plenty of creative reasons to offer more such as IR and no-LP. The image below included different levels of ND built-in.

I remember that now. Yes. My point was this is not what one would call a controlled entry into swappable OLPFs. Problems, circumstances and blowback have brought this idea back into play.

 

[Ben Scott]

Agree. Like firmware. Beta should be red coloring in menus etc and release build should be green in color.

Oooh that's a good idea too.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Can someone confirm that the new OLPF, the one currently in the Dragon, is noisier at above 800 ISO, 1280 ISO than MX? Because I shoot a LOT of 1280 Iso due to High Shutter speeds in motorsports shooting. Mark Toya, anyone working in Motorsports that has the Dragon that can share their experience? Now I have the option to go Old vs New. Which one would you choose?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I agree with Mark.

I really like how RED has enhanced the rollout of the DRAGON sensor and also addressed both parts of the equation, which is to satisfy those who would like extra highlight protection, rolloff, better skin tones, and flare reduction, and also those who would like just an extra bit of noise floor with the modular OLPF option. Smart.

Some people like a simple answer, and there are plenty of cameras that are closer to the "prosumer" school of thought that allow for more automation and less decision making, but RED is a Cinema Camera company. I think they are making great decisions on how they are developing their product line.

But the cinema camera market may soon be saturated in sales, the other 90% is what is needed. Especially if go pro launch a hybrid normal/ cinema camera in September or NAB. People also wonder if there might be a BMD release in September. This is not to mention other companies too.

 

[Elsie N]

But the cinema camera market may soon be saturated in sales, the other 90% is what is needed. Especially if go pro launch a hybrid normal/ cinema camera in September or NAB. People also wonder if there might be a BMD release in September. This is not to mention other companies too.

Thanks in no small part to RED, the cinema camera market is evolving. So there will be newer tech that keeps the market vibrant. Not that the Dragon will be outdated any time soon, much like the iphones that are being replaced by newer ones aren't actually outdated.

I don't know how many cameras RED has sold, but I doubt Jim imagined in his wildest dreams the numbers would reach where they are now. Think about that... thousands and thousands of individual owners of blockbuster-making cameras!

Go Pros, BMD cameras... they are aiming at REDs dissipating contrails in terms of image.

I think eventually, RED cameras, though still aiming at the professional market in the quality of their output, will become as easy or even easier to attain that quality than the Go Pros and BMDs will be able to reach their level of quality.

Like Casey, Mark and others have said (and me too in past posts) RED is a camera for professionals or professional wannabees. I fully expect that will remain the case going forward.

 

[Brian Merlen]

what if it were screwless insertable? like it uses magnetic edges like the chargers on macbook pros? some way to optimize the swapping process? also add a clear filter so protect the sensor so even if people botch the swap and scratch it has some protection from damaging the sensor? i agree it makes the system complex to have this feature, but alexa already had a somewhat similar feature with its behind the lens ND/filters they have in the new model... is anyone complaining alexa is too hard to use cuz of the new feature? of course not...

i don't fundamentally dislike the idea...if anything i would make sure my rental kit had one that came with it...or if they don't want to send it out as part of the normal kit then i'd want to be the sole provider of it at the house to pick up the speciality shot cash flow... i mean the reality is DPs already use various filters in front of the lens, why is various filters in back of the lens a problem? anyway the concept does interest me since i do a lot of run and gun, but don't want to be married to the red dot reflection issue...so provided there is a safe, easy, idiot proof way to swap it, I don't think its that big a deal to do so... and i appreciate the creative choice in the matter as well