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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Mixing Red Scarlet X and Sony A7s II. Thoughts?

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Raphael Madeira

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UPDATE:

Finally got my Sony A7sII!
Been making a few tests and I've realized there is a little too much banding in highlights in SLOG3 4k for my taste.
So I'm going to try to use Cine4 gamma with S-gamut3 as a starting point and make some grading tests, see if I can match the footage of the Sony with my Red Scarlet.
Cine4 is not log and you lose a little bit of dynamic range but at least there is no banding, 8bit kinda ruins Slog3 sadly.
I will be posting a video showing a grading test, trying to match grades from Cine4 and Redlogfilm footage to look as close as possible.
If anyone has questions or wants me to test some stuff and post results let me know!


Hello everyone,

I searched around and haven't been able to find enough information on the following subject, was hoping some of you have experience on the matter and could clear some doubts.
I currently own a Red Scarlet X (still going strong!) and was considering buying a Sony A7s II as a B cam.
Don't have experience with Sony cameras and what scares me a bit is how much people say that S-log 2 or 3 is difficult to grade.
Now I know that Red and Sony have a different color science and all, but I was wondering if the footage from these 2 sensors (Red Mysterium X and Sony A7s cameras) can be "intercut" fairly well.
In case you're wondering I'm talking about mixing Redlogfilm and S-log 3.
Is it just a matter of some extra time grading the S-log or is the sony footage really too different and hard to mix with red footage with good results?
Thanks for whatever help you can provide guys!

Cheers
 
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I often use an A7R II on a slider with Red MX on tripod and i can mix them quite easily. Much more than with the GH4 i used before. I don't use slog, just "normal" cine on the Sony.
 
I would not recommend mixing those two cameras. Although you can grade and match anything theses days (assuming you are talented enough as a colorist), it's an added layer of difficulty that can (should?) be avoided. Is purchasing another SCARLET M-X out of the question? That would probably be much easier on you (at least from a grading perspective.)
 
Marcus Friedlander said:
I would not recommend mixing those two cameras. Although you can grade and match anything theses days (assuming you are talented enough as a colorist), it's an added layer of difficulty that can (should?) be avoided. Is purchasing another SCARLET M-X out of the question? That would probably be much easier on you (at least from a grading perspective.)
Click to expand...

Honestly I was looking more for a 4k camera with a dslr format in terms of body and weight to compliment my Red Scarlet.
The Sony A7sII just seemed like the best bang for the buck, plus it has a nice specialty with its amazing low light sensitivity.

Fortunately I am rather decent on Davinci Resolve so some extra work in grading doesn't really scare me.
What scares me however is the possibility of needing to put a lot of work into grading the sony footage and still only getting mediocre results.

Is S-log 2/3 footage really that hard to grade and get closer to that dreamy cinematic image you get out of Red?
Isn't there some lut that helps out in this regard, like the Kodak 2393 Lut from Juan Melara for example?

Cheers!
 
Thanks for the clarification.

If you feel comfortable as a colorist, then I would say go for it. I don't have enough experience with S-log 2 or 3 to be able to say accurately. But I have a feeling matching the feeling of the skintones on the two cameras will be tough. However, if you are careful with your coverage you should be able to make it work.

Probably the the best thing to do would be to rent a Sony body and shoot some tests! Would love to hear/see your results!
 
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I've mixed Dragon and A7R2, It's surprisingly close at 1080. I use PP4 - medium flat, halfway to S-log. S-log gets you a little more in the highlights, but you can have banding issues with it too due to 8bit.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
Matt Uhry said:
I've mixed Dragon and A7R2, It's surprisingly close at 1080. I use PP4 - medium flat, halfway to S-log. S-log gets you a little more in the highlights, but you can have banding issues with it too due to 8bit.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
Click to expand...

thats a good point Matt. If you are delivering 1080p it should be much easier to match then delivering 4k.
 
Matt Uhry said:
I've mixed Dragon and A7R2, It's surprisingly close at 1080. I use PP4 - medium flat, halfway to S-log. S-log gets you a little more in the highlights, but you can have banding issues with it too due to 8bit.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
Click to expand...

This is good to know, mind you the A7rII sports a different sensor than the A7sII but it's still the same color science I would assume.

Also I won't be delivering anything higher than 2K so I should be fine.

I will try to make some tests before or after I buy the camera and I will be sure to share here for you guys to see!

Cheers!
 
Looking forward to seeing your tests! Thanks for offering!
 
depends, the DR on both cameras are very different, if you are a colorist you might be able to pull it off
 
Raphael Madeira said:
This is good to know, mind you the A7rII sports a different sensor than the A7sII but it's still the same color science I would assume.

Also I won't be delivering anything higher than 2K so I should be fine.

I will try to make some tests before or after I buy the camera and I will be sure to share here for you guys to see!

Cheers!
Click to expand...

I am looking forward to seeing your footage.
 
I own all three cameras, the A7S2, R2 and of 'course the Scarlet. In my opinion it is possible to match these Cameras if you have recorded on a Shogun/NinjaAsssasin and if you are really good in grading. I personally don't like neither the S-LOG 2 nore the S-LOG 3. Both of them provide a great DR but they are damn hard to grade properly. For a HD online streaming it is good enough but going for 4K on a huge Screen, especially Skin tones and other Colors are - in my mind - nowhere near as good as ones shot with the Scarlet or, in generally, any RED shot in REDRAW.

Talking about noise and sensitivity of 'course the A7S and S2 are another animal. I personally go for my RED anytime I can and rather rent a second one instead using any Sony A7* as B-Roll.
 
The recorder wont help you... the Sony mirrorless cams only output 8 bit.
 
Oh really?? Huh. Wild. So is there any benefit to the mk2 using a recorder?

we are in post on a feature that has night stuff on the mk2 and day stuff on scarlet, and the Sony looks like crap.
 
BrandonChristensen said:
Oh really?? Huh. Wild. So is there any benefit to the mk2 using a recorder?

we are in post on a feature that has night stuff on the mk2 and day stuff on scarlet, and the Sony looks like crap.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, not much is gained by an external recorder with the a7sii, You might gain a 4:2:2 signal vs a 4:2:0 internal recording... this could possibly only help color sampling (green screen or vfx), and personally I have never seen any tangible evidence that this actually improves picture quality. I have seen keys from highly compressed dslrs that look better than some 4:2:2 signals (another topic for another day).

The Sony's are tough to get a perfect match with other cams. I DP and color grade for a web show that uses BMCCs primarily with Sony cams for slow mo, we also use Reds on occasion. The color sciences for all cams are way different. Yes you can get them to match(ish) but it will take work, the Sonys do not do well with mixed color temps and the sky can get a blue green cast.

The main advantage of an external recorder would be recording straight to Prores. Other than that, the pictures are about the same.
 
steve-o said:
Unfortunately, not much is gained by an external recorder with the a7sii,
Click to expand...

Incorrect.

1) You bypass the h.264 compression, which throws away a big portion od data and is responsible for the image falling apart much more quickly.
2) You bypass lower quality compression algorythms.
3) You get higher color resolution.
4) You greatly reduce further generation loss

steve-o said:
You might gain a 4:2:2 signal vs a 4:2:0 internal recording... this could possibly only help color sampling (green screen or vfx), and personally I have never seen any tangible evidence that this actually improves picture quality.
Click to expand...

Check high saturated edges.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Incorrect.

1) You bypass the h.264 compression, which throws away a big portion od data and is responsible for the image falling apart much more quickly.
2) You bypass lower quality compression algorythms.
3) You get higher color resolution.
4) You greatly reduce further generation loss



Check high saturated edges.
Click to expand...

If ya want a bulky external recorder for that... knock yourself out. Personally that feels like very little picture gain.

In a digital world you are still dealing with generation loss?
 
there is an ACES selection in Davinci project settings. If I remember correctly this has something to do with making a standard color format across different brands of camera color space.
 
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