Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

mixers with respect to recorders

B

Bryce W.

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
90
Reaction score
0
Points
0
If you were to get a Sound Devices 744 and not get a sound mixer, can anyone put into perspective how detrimental this would be to sound quality by not using a mixer.
 
It sure is easier to mix on the fly with a dedicated mixer in the chain than to try and ride gain on the 7 series recorders.
 
Also, "mixing" with gain is a destructive mix. You can't cut out a talent's lav as they walk off frame or the camera pans away from them for example, or during a hug, where the lavs get buried, without cutting the gain to the recording track. Not everyone needs to deliver a true mix, so operating without a mixer is fine too. It is sort of one of those situations, if you know why you need a mix, you'll know why you need a mixer. 744t only has two gain pots.

Lavs are mostly used as a backup for the boom mic by many. There are many situations where you would want to record the lav or lightly mix it in, but not predominately hear it on the mix track, in order to avoid phase issues.
 
Tom Visser said:
Also, "mixing" with gain is a destructive mix. You can't cut out a talent's lav as they walk off frame or the camera pans away from them for example, or during a hug, where the lavs get buried, without cutting the gain to the recording track. Not everyone needs to deliver a true mix, so operating without a mixer is fine too. It is sort of one of those situations, if you know why you need a mix, you'll know why you need a mixer. 744t only has two gain pots.

Lavs are mostly used as a backup for the boom mic by many. There are many situations where you would want to record the lav or lightly mix it in, but not predominately hear it on the mix track, in order to avoid phase issues.
Click to expand...

How common of a problem is gain when using a boom mic in your experience? Can you get away without a mixer or would it be very difficult?
 
As far as technical quality, S/N ratio, distortion etc... Not using a mixer will actually be cleaner. Less electronics in the signal path.

It really depends on how many mics you are planning to use at once, The 744 has 4 inputs, 4 preamps and records 4 tracks but only has two gain controls on the front panel. These 2 knobs are small.
 
Last edited:
I agree with most of the above. Note that the main issue with the 744t is that you can't run 4 inputs into it and wind up with a mix on 1 track. It's really designed for use with an external mixer, like a 522 or the older 442. With those, you can create a mono mix on one channel, then record 3 additional channels for isos, which is extremely flexible for editing.

The 744 still works fine in situations where you have the ability to mix the tracks later on, or you only need to record (say) split tracks for an interview. I would consider the 744 to be more of a recorder than a mixer, in that repect -- but still a great recorder.
 
Bryce W. said:
How common of a problem is gain when using a boom mic in your experience? Can you get away without a mixer or would it be very difficult?
Click to expand...
Should be fine - you really don't want to ride gain on takes with a boom mic or you'll get 'breathing'.
I'm planning on doing what you are asking since we run with just a boom mic 99% of the time.
So long as you can set a level during rehearsal, can't see a problem.

IF you plan on working with more mics, ENG style work, mixing to camera etc as well as booming single camera drama, look at the Sound Device 522.
It's £1K cheaper, and has 4 inputs and a 2 track recorder built-in.
 
Craig Weeding said:
As far as technical quality, S/N ratio, distortion etc... Not using a mixer will actually be cleaner. Less electronics in the signal path.
Click to expand...

Well, that is true for an analog path. If you have a digital mixer to a digital recorder, there is no loss. Ditto for a digital mic to digital mixer, to digital recorder.

Back to the OP's question, it sounds like you are trying to lower your costs on a particular project rather than just a general question. Can you give some more details as to what you are trying to do?
 
The biggest problem I see with just using a 744t by itself is that it can't make a mono mix from multiple inputs (though I'll have to check and see if there might be a kludge to sum inputs -- I know that can be done in headphones).

My experience is, for real mixing, you need an external mixer. Generally, a mono mix is required to give to the editor for the initial edit in post; the iso tracks would be used later on by the sound editor and mixer. The much-more costly 788 can be used to mix, but those little tiny knobs are not ideal for fast-moving mix situations. A portable mixer like the 552 or even the older 442 work great, have big knobs, great metering, and very clean preamps.
 
I am trying to have low costs and am wondering whether I can get away with a boom mic and 744 (without a mixer), while still retaining film quality sound. 'Is this reasonable to achieve' is the premise.
 
Bryce W. said:
I am trying to have low costs and am wondering whether I can get away with a boom mic and 744 (without a mixer), while still retaining film quality sound. 'Is this reasonable to achieve' is the premise.
Click to expand...
No, not in my opinion. My suggestion is that you rent or borrow a 744t and a boom mike (like a Sennheiser 416 on a K-Tek pole), and try it for a weekend. The knobs are not going to allow you ride levels very effectively, and there are situations where a boom mike won't work.

It's kind of like trying to shoot a movie with one lens and one light. I guess technically it could be done, but you'd have a lot more flexibility with a wide choice of lighting gear and lenses.

You might also read up on the art of location sound mixing. I have a list of books at this link which cover the territory pretty well. Suffice it to say, it's not something you can learn in a week or a month; it's a long, involved process, not unlike becoming a cinematographer.

There are discussions by beginners over on Jeff Wexler's sound mixing site that give advice on where and how to start. I think a basic kit of a couple of wireless mikes, a few lavs, a used mixer, a boom pole, a shotgun mike, and a digital recorder will cover a lot of low budget indie/student situations. In your case, it might make more sense to borrow or rent the gear, if you can't afford to buy them. I think you're looking at roughly $4K as a minimal investment, and it can literally go to over $100K for large sound systems.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top