Misconception

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Recently I have noticed two instances of Epic conception.

First: I am DPing the reboot of Arrested Development for Netflix and Fox and using Epic. The Fox production execs noted that "Oh so many DPs bought that camera and that is why they want to use it".

2nd: My production designer today, who is a friend, stated that he liked Alexa more than RED and was surprised about my choice ... I said simply, Spiderman, Hobbit, Promeateus, Total Recall etc. and he said "of yeah the directors bought all the cameras and get a kickback."

I could argue for hours but it would be like Obama versus Romney......

What I want to say is that I never realized the feeling that Epic is only popular because you can buy it at such a reasonable price...

I do not know how to fight this misconception. Fanboy base and this forum is NOT a good starting point but I would welcome words that could be used in a counter argument....

Jarred , Ted and Jim know that I feel we need some advertising apart from all of us (and Soderberg, Fincher, Jackson, Scott etc.) to sell this to the mainstream. But I don't know if this would help.....

Respectfully,

Peter

 

[Jon Jones]

I don't argue about stuff like that, just let your work shine and speak for itself. Let the camera work and shine for itself. If they like another camera tell them to at least try it, and don't knock it till you try it.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Peter, I was recently approached by senior Sony execs saying that they are doing a big production with some underwater sequences. They said it is all shot on F65s.
I said, that's fantastic camera...on land. But...

1. Do you have an underwater housing for it?

2. And, if you have or build one, what optics are you going to use in order to achieve more than standard definition quality across the frame?

After short explanation how underwater optics work, they asked me for a business card and took a brochure of DeepX underwater housing that is specifically designed for the RED Epic and would not be possible to make for almost any other camera and in particular the F65. 5 minutes earlier they have not even contemplated about even looking at RED Epic.

It's all it takes: a few or even one small feature that draws the line between possible and impossible, good idea and a bad one.

And, the Epic has dozens of such features.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I think one area to push its the unique modular approach and form factor. No other camera from the competition provides such a uniquely configurable camera system- at least one that produces this level of pictures in similar price points. I think "creative freedom" is something that can also be pushed. You can get an Epic and shoot some guerrilla pick up shots that you would never be able to get with any of the other available options. Films like Black Swan, for example, used the 5D Mark II for that particular reason. It also allows a "less intrusive" approach on the actors, which might help on their performances. It allows much more versatile shooting angles, and the use of less expensive support gear. Yes, the budget factor, again.

Technically, it does RAW capture. If you shoot some stock footage of locations in a TV series, for example, the versatility of the footage manipulation can make the same shot look completely different in various episodes. If one is mastering in 2K, for example, the reframing possibilities can make a simple shot worth 2 or 3 different ones.

It uses a very compact Media (SSD) that allows (with the new 512GB cards) longer running times than the competition. This can be key in certain productions, like wildlife, documentaries, even some remote location fiction work.

The red workflow is a mature post workflow, integrated in all major post production pipelines. Red Cine X is a free software that does everything one needs before going to grading and finishing.

And, above everything else, it comes in black.

 

[PatrickFaith]

First off, one piece of advice you've given in the latest American Cinematographer Close-up section that I have taken to heart :

Interviewer: What is the best professional advice you've ever received?
P.L.C "Treat everyone on a set as a human being. Learn everyone's name, and don't abuse any perceived power."

On your question, the common elements are about Directors&DP changing role in the financial side:

Recently I have noticed two instances of Epic conception.
... so many DPs bought that camera ....
.... of yeah the directors bought all the cameras ...
Respectfully,
Peter

The critical common component is that the DP and/or director "bought" into the camera ... i take this as more then just the purchase, but they have bought into a new way of thinking of finance. If I could posit, their misconception statement is actually a question "how do I fit into this new world of digital media finance?". This is a adjunct to M. Cioni's recent statement:

"Assembling all this together, I believe this boils down to two key ingredients which are somewhat linked together: Traumatic disassociation affects the people in today’s professional industry who fail to recognize the significance of the changing media ecosystem
Skilled Based Technological Change represents the people who resist and attack the change they are being forced to recognize"

So it's more of a emotional question they are asking, "Can I fit into this new digital financial world?" Since it's a emotional question not a technical one, the response must be an emotional. Basically a response of comfort, asking questions why they don't think they can fit, how to reapply skills, that their experience is valuable. It really comes down to helping them handle the fears they have that they personally cannot deal with the changes. This of course comes back to your advice in the Close-up section, which they need to take to heart

 

[Mark Pugh]

It's probably natural to want to shoot on a system that you own, as you probably get to like it, and get good at using it.

 

[Zac C]

I think the best part about your post Peter is that you're shooting the AD reboot!!! We'll need to have you post updates on shooting it. Like how will you go about bringing the ENG style into the reboot and movie.

But that's another thread.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I believe that when the Dragon Sensor upgrade program begins hopefully by the
end of this year, that there will be less and less of these types of negative views about the Epic.

In other words, once the Epic is beyond great, people will stop trying to put it down.
Sometimes I think people put it down BECAUSE it is so great.

 

[Mark Toia]

I feel for you guys that you have to try to explain yourselves. Really sucks !. I rememer 5 years ago when I was shooting the RED ONE I had to do a bit of selling of it. But after 12 months went past and all my ad's looked stunning, know body even care after that.

End of the day it comes down to you educating your clients, and your past work using the Epic or a particular camera.

I just heard again today about a job being shot tomorrow in the next studio that the client wants to shoot ALEXA because it has better skin tones. Thats a client saying that.. not a colourist, not a DP, not online specialist.. thats the client demanding what camera gets used. Reason they asked for it, is because some DP or colorist somewhere in the world told that person that it was better, and now the client believes it.
When the true facts are, you can get any skin tone color you desire using RAW from any camera.

It's all fun at the end of the day.

Cameras are only tools, content always wins.

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Peter,

Congratulations on landing the Arrested Development gig. I'm a huge fan and I look forward to seeing your work on Netflix in the near future!

Secondly, I had a conversation with a producer a few months back about using the EPIC over the R1. He stated there is no reason to use the EPIC because the resolution isn't fit for our final web output, I said it doesn't matter, because we can always shoot 4k with the camera, but 5K gives us more options in post to reframe, etc. He then said it's cheaper to get the R1 over the EPIC, and where in most cases that may be considered true, I just told him that we're shooting on the EPIC because that is the camera I believe will do the job the best.

There's a lot more to that story, but it's not worth mentioning. I just tell everyone I shoot projects for that we are using one of the best cameras in the world because we know how to get the best images out of it.

Good luck on AD!

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

PatrickFaith

Great comment.... i really appreciate your time in your response ... I will use this in the future with producers.....'

and also a big shout out to Mark for his words since I have nothing but continued respect for how you showcase the Epic with your fine images.. That is the final answer to why Epic is a great tool....

 

[Filip Orlandic]

Jarred , Ted and Jim know that I feel we need some advertising apart from all of us (and Soderberg, Fincher, Jackson, Scott etc.) to sell this to the mainstream. But I don't know if this would help.....

Strong advertising is neccssary because many countries in Europe have already abandoned RED camera systems.

List of countries: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark... I guess there are a few more countries.

We really need RED's help in this fight. Without a strong advertising, Dragon sensor/EPIC will not attract ARRI/Sony shooters.

Rental companies and private owners will be forced to sell RED cameras and buy something different which is popular in their countries.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

There are many misconceptions about both shooting with the RED cameras & the post-production of R3Ds - and I've fought them relentlessly almost on a daily basis up until recently. I'm sure the reasons for shooting with other systems vary from country to country and from production to production, but here in Denmark almost nobody is shooting major feature films on the REDs anymore. A lot of the MX cameras that are left are mostly being used to shoot low/no-budget projects, music videos and commercials. EPICs aren't doing much work at all except for commercials. Only a few people own ScarletXs here. The problem with those projects is that they usually don't have the expertise to treat the footage correctly (or even shoot it properly) and they can't afford the right tools (or people like me) to deal with post-production and data/image-handling. That kinda ends up giving RED a bad reputation because people feel the post process is slow and clunky and doesn't provide anything "extra" than any other camera could. Basically, amateurs almost never know how to truly unlock the potential of the RAW workflow that RED offers. So - next time they shoot on something different.

Here in Denmark there's a common misunderstanding that 1080p or 2K is good enough for acquisition (IMHO, I disagree!) and what they're able to handle in post production facilities. None of the large facilities here can handle a 4K workflow for a feature at this point (as far as I know of). I've tried to offer my services as a DIT and give them free transcoding (!) to whatever format they needed, be it ProRes or DNxHD. No takers. The last RED feature I worked on was late 2010 - everything since then has been Alexa. It's a sad, really... and it's the reason I've begun selling all of the equipment I specifically bought for renting out my kit. I'm only keeping my EPIC for myself for as long as I can afford it. If this continues then I really don't see a future for RED cameras in my country. None of the EPICs in Denmark that I know of have paid themselves back yet. My RED ONE was paid off in about 4-5 months back in 2008 - just to compare.

Now, there has been some flaws in the EPIC from the beginning which have crippled it to some extend from getting a wider adoption here. One problem is that we need FAST turnarounds here... That requires some kind of on-board direct-to-edit codec. A ProRes module should have been there from the beginning of the EPIC-M program; it would have crippled Alexa adoption here BIG time. I know REDs stance on 4K acquisition and delivery, but this was a major fault IMHO. Another problem was the lack of two monitor or EVF outputs on-camera. Faster play-back in-camera would have been nice but wasn't a deal-breaker. I'm just quoting what I hear in the field when I ask people why they didn't even consider shooting on an EPIC. Quite a few producers have also argued that they didn't need a DIT for an Alexa-shoot. Yeah, really - oh well - I'm not going to argue with them on that ;-)

One way to fight the misconceptions is advertising, but I don't believe it's a viable way for many markets and countries. No DP I know of here in Denmark is going to choose a RED camera for their next feature based on an ad in a magazine. Proof is in the pudding - so to speak. Running an ad here could also backfire, I think. DPs would read it as if RED is trying to win over prosumer users and no high-end DP want to be associated with prosumers and amateurs ;-).

The MX sensor has done well, but we really need the Dragon sensor in our cameras to show the DPs the clear advantage over the competition. That can only be done by hard working people who have a clear interest (and knowledge, obviously) about the RED eco-system. Education is key! RED also needs to cater more to their evangelists (or ambassadors, if you prefer) and provide them the proper tools to convince DPs and producers that shooting RED isn't hard. I'd love to keep fighting for the cause, but as the market is right now (over-saturated with Alexas, C300s, F3s etc) - there's just not enough of an financial incentive and clear advantage in doing so. Not as a one-man band, anyway. I'd love to help set up an event here. That might help clear up some of the misconceptions.

 

[Shane Kelly]

There's some truth in the statement that a lot of Dp's want to use a certain camera because they bought it. Otherwise, why would they have purchased it? The funny thing is that I see it as well from all the production companies that bought a 5d (no matte box, tripod, monitor etc, just a camera and lens) and want to shoot everything on it, including greenscreen, because of the dslr evangelists that told them it was the jesus camera.
The fact is, there are a lot epic/scarlet cameras out there and there are a lot of people who don't know how to get the best out of them. A film camera used to be just that: a tool. If you were a crap dp, it was your fault, not the camera's. These days a lot of people blame the camera.
Red's plan of making all of the owners beta testers has also hurt the perception of the camera as reliability tends to be a big deal for a producer.

As the zacuto piece shows there are a lot of cameras out there that do a very good job at representing a scene. A DP should pick a camera based upon the demands of the job. I do shoot 90% of my jobs on my epic but that doesn't mean that I won't suggest a different camera that's better suited for a job. Only yesterday I got a call from a producer that wants to shoot 300 frames on the epic and I'm now trying to convince her to shoot on the fs700 instead as I think it looks better at that speed. Sometimes it goes both ways.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

I do not know how to fight this misconception. Fanboy base and this forum is NOT a good starting point but I would welcome words that could be used in a counter argument....

If you, a respected and talented ASC member who has been involved in some major productions, can't fight that misconception, I doubt you (or anyone else) will find a way to fight it here. I think the best thing one could do is to find the reason of that misconception, which, to me, is mostly based on perception, both of the camera and of RED as a company. I personally don't have horses in this race because I'm not interested in buying cameras, I'm very happy with the rental system, so I hope this comment of mine comes as unbiased as it actually is.
I can only say what's the perception of RED is here in Italy, and I want to stress this is what I've been hearing around sets and rental houses for the last 4 years:

- "the camera is not designed by people who understand filmmaking gear "
- "there's no official RED office in the country, so assistance is provided by people who are not connected to the company"
- "marketing is done by crazy fanboys who have tons of money to buy the camera and lenses but have never stepped on a real set"
- "it can look good if you have a shitload of money to spend in post-production"
- "the sensor is 320 ASA"
- "why would you need to buy a camera?"
- "their forum sucks and I don't have time to waste with people who sound like religious fanatics".
- "it's used by big American productions because they had a better deal, but it's just a way to sell cameras"
- "if you want to use the camera perfectly, you have to spend a lot of money, fly to Los Angeles, and take one of their classes"

As crazy as it may sound, all these "reasons" are part of the way RED is perceived, at least here, even by people who have never touched the camera once (and I'm talking about "big name" assistants, operators and cinematographers). ARRI is perceived as "quiet" and "reliable" as a company, while RED is perceived as "loud". Change the perception, and I bet the misconceptions will disappear. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it's something that can be done overnight: once people believe in something, it's kind of difficult to change that belief, and it may take a long time. That doesn't mean you can't start the process somewhere...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

That is fun, Tony.

I see some of the same here, but at the broadcast corp we stick with Red so far are and are increasingly happy with it. I know of DP's who have chisen RED again for features after working with us.

I think a lot of the issues come from poor knowledge experiences and - pardon my French- reds and fanboys going into denial over obvious (solveable) issues.

Afaik epics are living well here in Norway, much due to a few knowledgable people dumbing it down a lot for the userbase. Instead of making it an intelctually heavy weird ubertool.

Simplifying workflow understanding has been key to this. From Eiriks Toia-like approach, to - in humbelty - my multilevel approach depending on project.

That way the REDs are now used not only for feature and promotional work at the broadcast corp. Last 6months I have taught close to 50 photographers + a few postpeople at the broadcast corp how to work with the cameras in fast turnaround situations. And the popularity and results from the cam has increased exponentially.

Is it the best solution in the world?
Possibly not.

Is it the best bleeding camera we have which is easiest to grade and flexible in post?
Hell yeah!

But people are intimidated by the preconceptions and stupid fanboyism + the obvious lack of basic photography knowledge in large parts of the userbase.
Beautifull images and ease of use sure beats that on so many levels...

 

[Shane Kelly]

But people are intimidated by the preconceptions and stupid fanboyism + the obvious lack of basic photography knowledge in large parts of the userbase.
Beautifull images and ease of use sure beats that on so many levels...

Agreed. I am seeing the epic being accepted more and more these days as it is almost a stable system. The images that I get out of the camera are wonderful and the flexibility in post is great. The producers are starting to see that the red is a viable system and the good ones understand that the post pipeline is a necessary part of this system.
The militaristic aspects of the naming conventions: bomb, gunner, etc, bother me a lot as I'm not a 15 year old boy any more and I think cheapen the achievement of red in building a great tool.

 

[Jason Diamond]

I was having this exact conversation with Mark Pederson and Ted a few months ago.

RED needs to take advantage of press for NON-3D movies because Producers and people who like to regurgitate info and hearsay will never get beyond industry misconceptions about any aspect of the industry much less Cameras and Camera Tech.

Education of the client is a key factor that we've all dealt with but especially since the REDOne and now Epic.

I'm glad you are fighting the good fight for education beyond tech and for landing amazing gigs, stoked to see what you bring to Arrested Development.

Keep on Truckin'

 

[Scott Crawley]

This may be overly simplistic but it seems to me that this battle is fought on only two fronts, the artistic and the financial. As long as the system is continually shown to produce solid results and the workflow is reliable, the bean counters will support it since it can be very competitive, financially speaking. The artists' considerations are many, and often personal/emotional. As long as there are top people proving the tool, others will follow.

That is the common denominator; striking and seemingly effortless images coming from those who know. That is what is needed, at least from the base. Keep leading from the top Peter. Win the war one battle at a time. There is room on the battlefield for Red to expand it's tactics though.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I can't wait for you to finish Arrested Development! That show/movie is so awesome!