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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Milo Motion Control and RED

Stephen Williams said:
Hi Dylan,

If the rig is using a Fries Mitchell & MRMC motor the bloop light just lights, it's not responsible in any way for the camera / rig sync. With a 435 the shutter will be synced with the Flair Software.

I had discussions with Assaff Rawner the MD at MRMC about 8 years ago on this subject when using an F900.

Stephen
Click to expand...

So why does the bloop light "just light"?

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com
 
dmacleod said:
So why does the bloop light "just light"?

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com
Click to expand...

Hi,

It's turned on by the computer, so it's in sync with the computer thats all!

To test get the Flair to set of an electronic flash at the start of the move & see if the rolling shutter artifacts are identical! I used a flash to check for field accuracy in video days gone by!

You don't have to believe me or Mike Most but we have both been there when that tiny error causes a nightmare in post.

Stephen

Edit The bloop light is to assist in matching the multi passes for compositing/editing, it does not create the sync in the first place.

If the camera going into record fires the Milo that may be the most accurate as long as all the passes are at the same speed,
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

It's turned on by the computer, so it's in sync with the computer thats all!

To test get the Flair to set of an electronic flash at the start of the move & see if the rolling shutter artifacts are identical! I used a flash to check for field accuracy in video days gone by!

You don't have to believe me or Mike Most but we have both been there when that tiny error causes a nightmare in post.

Stephen

Edit The bloop light is to assist in matching the multi passes for compositing/editing, it does not create the sync in the first place.
Click to expand...

Hi Stephen

Not doubting, just trying to understand what was explained to me (which seemed to make sense).

"The bloop light assists in matching each pass"...that is what I am talking about.

From what I understood, in 99.9 percent of motion control applications the editor will synch to the bloop light, and everything is cool, no?

Perhaps I am oversimplifying?

The rig needs to move at exactly the same speed each time. The MILO is in charge of that, not the camera. If it repeats itself to the millisecond, and you synch to the bloop light...what is the potential tiny error you speak of?

Mike Most is a master, no doubt...just trying to understand how what I was told is incorrect.

Thanks.

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com
 
dmacleod said:
Hi Stephen

Not doubting, just trying to understand what was explained to me (which seemed to make sense).

"The bloop light assists in matching each pass"...that is what I am talking about.

From what I understood, in 99.9 percent of motion control applications the editor will synch to the bloop light, and everything is cool, no?

Perhaps I am oversimplifying?

The rig needs to move at exactly the same speed each time. The MILO is in charge of that, not the camera. If it repeats itself to the millisecond, and you synch to the bloop light...what is the potential tiny error you speak of?

Mike Most is a master, no doubt...just trying to understand how what I was told is incorrect.

Thanks.

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com
Click to expand...

Hi Dylan,

When I shoot watches using MoCo driven by Flair there is always 4 ramp up & 4 ramp down frames, all the takes are exactly the same length no need for a bloop light! I prefer to always shoot that way (with a pre hold if required) syncing is so much quicker!

The timing error is the rig & camera are not synced to the millisecond, (just the rig & bloop light is) . The maximium error is 1/2 of the framerate i.e 1/48 second @ 24fps. That may or may not be an issue depending on the relative size change per frame. With a fast moving camera you need to be aware of potential problems. If you shoot a background plate & moving elements against a green screen then it won't matter.


Stephen
 
Hi,
Here is the data I know about using the Milo with RED:
The Milo (and other Mark Roberts Motion Control Rigs) get used quite a lot with RED cameras but there are some limitations. If you are not doing repeat passes then there are no limitations. The Milo can start and stop the camera (subject to having the right cable) whenever it needs to.
If you are doing repeat passes then there are limitations. Unfortunately the people at RED have not provided any synch output from the camera. When the RED first came out I was told it was on its way in development, since then I, and many other motion control users, have been told it will not be available on the RED. I am not sure why as it is very important especially for motion control. Nearly all film cameras have this facility and normally consist of a pulse output every frame (every shutter revolution) that the rig can synchronise to. This is very important for being able to do repeat passes since the rig has to be in exactly the same place when exposure occurs everytime it is filming the same scene.
It is possible to use the RED for repeat passes when shooting at standard video or HD rates (24, 25, 30, 50, 60 FPS) since the Milo can use the video signal from the camera to synchronize to. But if you want to shoot at 12FPS or 120FPS or any other non-video speed then there is nothing on the camera to synchronize to and doing repeat passes becomes very difficult and risky.
Having a bloop light will make no difference.
I suggest as many people as possible Petition RED to change their stance on this as otherwise it will greatly limit the RED's use for motion control Special Effects.
 
assaaffr - It is possible to use the RED for repeat passes when shooting at standard video or HD rates (24, 25, 30, 50, 60 FPS) since the Milo can use the video signal from the camera to synchronize to.
Click to expand...

Hi assaffr,

Thanks for the info. I am wondering how this is currently possible at f.ex. 23.98, since the RED One outputs 720/23.98 over 59.94 and there are currently no flags in the User Bits on the HD-SDI stream telling which frames are 'duplicates' or which are 'originals'?

Also, I was not aware that the Milo could sync to 720/23.98 over 59.94....even if you had those 'Varicam' flags?

Cheers, Wolf
 
Hi Wolf,
Firstly, when I say synch to the video signal I mean the analog signal not the SDI signal. There is no way to synchronize to the SDI signal at any speed without using a converter (HD-SDI to HD Component/Analog). But take the component output (from the camera or a converter) and feed it into the video synch connector on a Milo or other Flair system and it will synchronize at various HD speeds including 24, and I believe 23.98 although I've mostly known it used at 24.
Does that make more sense?

there is also more info on synching with the RED on the mocoforum including the following thread:
http://www.mocoforum.com/discus/messages/10/3172.html

On a seperate note, I have tried on this forum to get it to send me an email when someone replies to a thread I have written in without success. Is there such an option?
 
Thanks again for great info Assaff,

Still not sure if I understand how it's possible to synchronize to a signal, digital or analogue, with 'pulldown' in it and no indication of where you are in that 'pulldown' sequence. Currently the RED One outputs 720/59.94 (or 50) with repeated frames for 23.98 or 24 or 25 or 29.97. For 23.98, which is the most common framerate here in the US, the RED One outputs (when 59.94 is selected as the output) 3 copies of the captured frame, then 2 copies, then 3 and so on. Now, if you try to do a repeat move and there are no flags telling you were you are in that sequence, how do you make the move repeatable?


Cheers, Wolf
 
Hi Wolf,
Maybe this is something for you to try out with Camera Control Inc. in LA on one of their Flair systems if you have access to a RED camera. I am not so familiar with all the output options of the RED but my understanding is that the preview output is similar in format to an HD camera an I know from experience that the HD signal when shooting at 24 does have an 'odd' and an 'even' field even though they are identical. Outputing 59 when recording at 24 is a new one on me. Is it not possible to simply set the output to 24 when shooting at 24?
 
Sorry. For now there is no way of setting the RED One camera to output only 24 (or 23.98). There has also been some statements from RED that it's likely live output will stay 720P (not enough processor power to output 1080 apparently....?). On playback RED One can output 1080P (NOT PsF like the Sony F900), but playback doesn't help much for motion control.

Hence why I was asking thinking maybe you had some magic trick with the sync or something.....?

Now, if RED can't make that 1080 out work, and we are stuck with 720P forever, maybe RED would be so kind and include 'Varicam' flags in the User Bits in the VITC on the HD-SDI out? I know of numerous boxes which can easily extract a 1080/23.98 signal out of 720/23.98 over 59.94 WITH 'Varicam' flags and then you have that 23.98 output signal that makes things work. With a chain like that there will probably be some delay and a PITA to figure out exactly when the camera shutter is firing, but at least it's constant and repeatable..... Oh, well.....

Cheers, Wolf
 
OK. I understand now. I know the camera has a start recording trigger. If the delay between the trigger and the actual recording is constant and not varying then that would be an alternative for multiple passes (the the same speed). Flair can trigger the camera and since both the camera and Flair are Crystal controlled the repeat passes will match. The start trigger on the camera is on the 10 way lemo connector and is documented in the RED One manual.
Maybe you have already thought of that.
 
I'd love to figure this one out too.
I may have a MoCo job next week.
Is the Genlock on our cameras in or out? Doesn't that have scan start pulse?
Cheers,
Harry
 
Mark Roberts the maker of the Milo and other Motion control rigs has used the Red and so have we with out Ultihead/Modula system also from Mark Roberts.
According to them Red initially was going to provide a sync signal from the Rs232 port but now is not. You can do motion control with the RED I've done quite a few already and it works well, but to really get the full benefit we need to get a pulse sync from the camera. The is important for full accuracy but is absolutely critical for animation work where we use what is called "go motion" in that the camera will move back and then move forward during a single exposure to get realistic motion blur.

Bret Lanius
AC-Motion Control Operator
Atanta GA
 
Blanius said:
Mark Roberts the maker of the Milo and other Motion control rigs has used the Red and so have we with out Ultihead/Modula system also from Mark Roberts.
According to them Red initially was going to provide a sync signal from the Rs232 port but now is not. You can do motion control with the RED I've done quite a few already and it works well, but to really get the full benefit we need to get a pulse sync from the camera. The is important for full accuracy but is absolutely critical for animation work where we use what is called "go motion" in that the camera will move back and then move forward during a single exposure to get realistic motion blur.

Bret Lanius
AC-Motion Control Operator
Atanta GA
Click to expand...

Hi,

Fo go motion the Flair can send a pulse to take the frame, if the Red can take single frames that would work. Always worked with an A60 years ago.

Stephen
 
Any updates on RED being a little more moco friendly?
 
Some problems still exist, but there are work arounds.
 
Wolf said:
Now, if RED can't make that 1080 out work, and we are stuck with 720P forever, maybe RED would be so kind and include 'Varicam' flags in the User Bits in the VITC on the HD-SDI out? I know of numerous boxes which can easily extract a 1080/23.98 signal out of 720/23.98 over 59.94 WITH 'Varicam' flags and then you have that 23.98 output signal that makes things work. With a chain like that there will probably be some delay and a PITA to figure out exactly when the camera shutter is firing, but at least it's constant and repeatable..... Oh, well.....
Cheers, Wolf
Click to expand...

I think Varicam technology is patented & licensed and Panasonic is probably not so kind to let RED use it :)

Btw, QtakeHD is the only software that CAN do reverse-pulldown while capturing 720p59.94 from RED ONE. Resulting movie file is 23.98 without "duplicated" frames. This won't
help with moco shutter sync while recording, but you can use it for fast and accurate on-set control.
QtakeHD can sync two clips with arbitrary sync point (bloop light) and show you difference blend of two layers in realtime.


www.qtakehd.com
 
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