Microphone Recommend like 416 but cheaper ?

[Karl Lohninger]

There is a reason why the 416 is THE microphone out in the field. Please note 'out' as it should be used mostly in exteriors (or larger interiors). It not only sounds excellent, it'll last a lifetime and will always work. Buy a used one or, hell, buy a 415T (you'll need a cheap 48V to 12V ab tingamajic) and save a few hundreds!

Schoeps, as we all know is excellent and probably a bit over qualified. But if you do, the mk41 is the right capsule and definitely not the MK5.

The Rode NTG-3 (I haven't used it so far) is a copy of the 416 and, if copied well, should be as good as......

The Sennheiser ME (66) line is a budget line and sounds like it. Buy if you can't afford something better.

Oktavas are cheap but not recommended for field use - there's definitely handling noise issues. BTW, as good as Schoepses are, I don't leave house without a backup as they tend to react to humidity every now and then.....!
Excellent mics and to be found for incredible low prices on fleabay is the AKG series 460/480 together with a CK63! OK is the AT 4053. There's also some copy of the 'schoeps' from Shure, I forgot it's name though.

And, because that was mentioned too in this thread, it's not at all difficult to windshield a Sennheiser 416 - why would it? You can go for a full 'rycote-style' windshield. Funny to call it that as 'rycote' actually copied this design themselves - or you go, and that's recommended for your uses, and get some kind of 'flurry' that's just slipped onto the microphone. It's easy put on and off, doesn't cost no arm or leg, and generally does the job.

Final advice: go get a used Sennheiser 415T (to be found as low as 300 bucks!) and with the rest and a little bit added get a sound devices 302 audio mixer and a nice pair of headphones and you're there!

 

[Evin Grant]

I have a particular affinity for Sennheiser MKH-50. I think it's the warmest and fullest mic you can get for dialog. It's all they used on ER. It is not as long or narrow as the 416 and doesn't need to be aimed quite so perfectly but for cinematic work you want to be within 2 feet anyways for really good dialog. If you're primary concern is outdoor audio get long throw but for cinema nothing beats the 50 IMHO.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Guy Cochran from dvcreator did a shoot out that you might find helpful as he specializes in testing low budget gear

Click here for SHOOTOUT

I found the Senn's the best sounding to my ears and we use ME-66 for ultra low and 416 for a film with budget.

Horses for Courses for sure. But since your thread was all about budget. Hope you find this helpful.

Not sure what its for, but for that $, I'd just hire a great sound guy who already has a kit.

 

[Ismael Diaz]

I'm looking for a Shotgun Mic too but I want mine on camera. I did some research and I found one the Shure SM89... but that thing is like 20" long and I don't know if its a good idea to stick that on the RED one... Any suggestions?

 

[Peter Moretti]

I have a particular affinity for Sennheiser MKH-50. I think it's the warmest and fullest mic you can get for dialog. It's all they used on ER. It is not as long or narrow as the 416 and doesn't need to be aimed quite so perfectly but for cinematic work you want to be within 2 feet anyways for really good dialog. If you're primary concern is outdoor audio get long throw but for cinema nothing beats the 50 IMHO.

This is EXCELLENT advice that should not be glanced over.

The 416 is "the" mic for soundstage environments or outside (like Karl has already said). But if you are on location shooting inside untreated rooms, then a Schoeps CMC641, an MKH-50 or MKH-8040 (gets my vote b/c of its small size, light weight and huge frequency response--you need to use a mixer w/ a good low cut/high pass filter or forget this mic) are some the best choices.

For outdoors or in a controlled enviornment, then an MKH-416 or MKH-60 are great choices. The 416 is a little warmer, the 60 has less noise and hence a little longer reach.

Of course you can use a 416 in untreated reflective room w/ normal height ceilings, and it will sound good. But the other mics will sound better in most cases.

 

[ericyoung]

For internal work, I've heard very good things about the Sanken CS3e too - but it's as expensive as a 416.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

I tested the CS3 and the 416. They were both excellent at rejecting camera noise (this was for a 35mm film feature). The CS3 sounded more neutral, with the 416 warmer. I went with the used 416 at $500 instead of the new CS3 for $1,400. I sent the 416 to Senn and they checked it, said it was fine sent it back, no charge.

Everything said here about the 416 goes for me - tough, sounds great, a real workhorse. But it's very directional, meaning there's a steep fallof, and unless talent is on mike (the boom op is placing the mic correctly) they will sound off. This is the proximity effect. It still is THE choice for a lot of pro film use but you'd better have a good boom op to run it, because if he points it at her shoulder it won't sound right, and most beginners seem to think sound comes out of human appendages. Drives me nuts. I spend so much time reaching out, grabbing the mic, putting it in the correct position. Big mistake to think that anyone can boom. As one sound guy said, it's not about holding a boom, it's about placing a microphone. Real science to it especially considering that actors and cameras move and mics create shadows . . .

So a more forgiving mic, that is, one with a broader patter and less proximity effect like maybe the CS1 or Schoeps would be better for inexperienced boom ops. I think the CS1 is smaller and weighs a lot less, too.

Also there is a mic company called MBHO that makes Schoeps clones for half price, I think, if they are still in business. Former Schoeps engineers.

I might try the Rodes you guys mention. Would be nice to have a wider pick up pattern mic at a good price.

In the end, the 416 just has that rich Hollywood feature sound - great for women's voices. But it's not easy to use.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I tested the CS3 and the 416. They were both excellent at rejecting camera noise (this was for a 35mm film feature). The CS3 sounded more neutral, with the 416 warmer. I went with the used 416 at $500 instead of the new CS3 for $1,400. I sent the 416 to Senn and they checked it, said it was fine sent it back, no charge.

Everything said here about the 416 goes for me - tough, sounds great, a real workhorse. But it's very directional, meaning there's a steep fallof, and unless talent is on mike (the boom op is placing the mic correctly) they will sound off. This is the proximity effect. It still is THE choice for a lot of pro film use but you'd better have a good boom op to run it, because if he points it at her shoulder it won't sound right, and most beginners seem to think sound comes out of human appendages. Drives me nuts. I spend so much time reaching out, grabbing the mic, putting it in the correct position. Big mistake to think that anyone can boom. As one sound guy said, it's not about holding a boom, it's about placing a microphone. Real science to it especially considering that actors and cameras move and mics create shadows . . .

So a more forgiving mic, that is, one with a broader patter and less proximity effect like maybe the CS1 or Schoeps would be better for inexperienced boom ops. I think the CS1 is smaller and weighs a lot less, too.

Also there is a mic company called MBHO that makes Schoeps clones for half price, I think, if they are still in business. Former Schoeps engineers.

I might try the Rodes you guys mention. Would be nice to have a wider pick up pattern mic at a good price.

In the end, the 416 just has that rich Hollywood feature sound - great for women's voices. But it's not easy to use.

All great points. MBHO make very good mics, they make an outstanding large capsuel mic great for a commentary mic similar in character to an older AKG 414EB.

If you want a less expensive MKH 416, look for a MKH 415 which is the former version. Many are T powered and converters can be found to power them.

There is also an extremely useful MKH 435 microphone. Same generation as a 415 but has a shorted tube on it so is more like a MKH50 in polar pattern, perhaps a little tighter. It hyper cardioid. They are rare and worth getting if you find one available. If you really must park it on top of the camera then its more suited than a 415/416, but regard placing it there as an insult to the microphone and the subject you pointing it at.

The other issue with hypercardioid mics (including most short gun mics) is they have a backwards pointing lobe so is perfectly suited to hear the grunts and breathing of the cameraman and the camera noises. If you were to imagine a clock and 12 represents the forward facing capsule then the off mic area is about 4 to 5 and 7 to 8 o'clock.

One of the most compelling reasons to use the older MKH mics 416's etc is they are very robust, virtually immune to humidity heat, cold and so on. nothing else comes close. Even the new range of MKH mics (30/40/50/60/70) is not so robust but does sound better and has a much lower noise floor. The down side to a 416 is that it does phase on pans. Just pan is in wind or with any form of traffic or sea shore and you'll hear it.

 

[Alan Skinner]

Matt, have a look at the Audio Technica 897. It has everything you are looking for and was recommended to me by BJ at Custom Supply when I needed something along the lines you requested. It's been a great mike and can be used with an internal battery or phantom, your choice. It's around $260.00.

BTW, I saw the new Rode blimp at NAB and liked it a lot. Here's a link to it at B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/579335-REG/Rode_BLIMP_Blimp_Complete_Windshield.html

I got the 897 and the new Rhode blimp. Makes a nice combo. Very nice mic for the $$.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I'm looking for a Shotgun Mic too but I want mine on camera. I did some research and I found one the Shure SM89... but that thing is like 20" long and I don't know if its a good idea to stick that on the RED one... Any suggestions?

Well if compare it to a Gefell M73 which is even longer then if may be OK. There are a few M73 in the former east Germany where they were very popular with the Stasi for 'eves dropping'. The make good snare drum mics which is a far better use for them.

 

[Adam Clark]

since the ntg-3 was brought up in this thread - rode has a promotion now that if you buy an ntg-3, you get the blimp for $1. i think it goes to the end of the year or while supplies last. i bought one and i gotta say, it's a great mic.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

As I understand it there is also a 405 or 406 mic which is like the 415 416 but shorter with a wider pattern. Tried to buy on ebay years ago but got outbid. The 416 is noisier than the later Sennheisers but they just couldn't discontinue it because it is so popular. T powered (12V) versions are cheaper but all the cameras and mixers around today put out phantom 48V so you need an extra box which is sort of a pain.

You can use that rear lobe sensitivity of shotgun mics as an on camera mic for you, the cameraman. Speak into the back of the mic to ask questions of the on camera talent. It works.

 

[Dave Blackham]

As I understand it there is also a 405 or 406 mic which is like the 415 416 but shorter with a wider pattern. Tried to buy on ebay years ago but got outbid. The 416 is noisier than the later Sennheisers but they just couldn't discontinue it because it is so popular. T powered (12V) versions are cheaper but all the cameras and mixers around today put out phantom 48V so you need an extra box which is sort of a pain.

You can use that rear lobe sensitivity of shotgun mics as an on camera mic for you, the cameraman. Speak into the back of the mic to ask questions of the on camera talent. It works.

The 405 and 406 are great cardiod mics.