Micro-budget film - 4K or 1080p deliverable?

[Ryan Lightbourn]

Hey everyone, I have a micro-budget horror film under my belt, which is about to be sent out to studios, and I had a question about the following (this may help other indie filmmakers too):

One of the studios I'm sending to for consideration said they're "especially interested" if I can provide a 4K deliverable.

This film will go to film festivals which mainly project 1080p masters, followed by VOD/web services such as Netflix, Hulu, iTunes, etc.

My question is this; what's the demand like right now for 4K? Will the cost of a 4K workflow (roughly $5-6K to upgrade my suite) and about 3-4 weeks of upscaling the entire film (including After Effects VFX) be worth the additional money I'd make on a buy-out deal or minimum guarantee? I can go to any Best Buy and see that consumerism is high; people drooling over UHD TVs, I'm just wondering if people actually have them in their living rooms.

Any advice is appreciated!

 

[Todd T]

If you already have it cut for 1080, what is stopping you from copying your timeline into a new 4K sequence and re-rendering on your existing setup right now?

 

[Ryan Lightbourn]

If you already have it cut for 1080, what is stopping you from copying your timeline into a new 4K sequence and re-rendering on your existing setup right now?

Cropped/scaled shots, VFX sequences need to be remade in 4K, no 4K realtime playback, no 4K monitor, potential Neat video addition (downscaling to 1080p reduces noise), microcontrast adjustments, redoing masks & motion tracking.

I shot 4K, cut in 1080p.

EDIT: I'd also like to keep my 1080p version as-is and have two alternate versions (e.g. different takes if focus shows up soft in 4K, and maybe swap out some cropped shots)

 

[D Anderson]

If distributor is asking for 4k it doesn't really matter what the home take up of 4K is.

 

[Freya]

Will the cost of a 4K workflow (roughly $5-6K to upgrade my suite) and about 3-4 weeks of upscaling the entire film (including After Effects VFX) be worth the additional money I'd make on a buy-out deal or minimum guarantee?

Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean will a buy-out or minimum guarantee be worth more than $5-6K? (I hope so!) or are you trying to compare those options to something you havn't told us about?

As to whether people have 4K TV's in their homes, probably not usually as it's a new thing but I'm not sure that's relevant to you making a sale to a studio.

Freya

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

There are two broadcasters I know of who've told me they're actively looking for 4K content for a 4th quarter launch of programming. I would be ready for it.

That said, the real costs come when referring to V/FX. One of the leading shops in Germany who do studio work say all they do is 2K delivery because the costs for all the extra horsepower (and time) required is not conducive to a studio delivery schedule. For us indie films where there's more time and less cash, it simply means having to figure out a way.

 

[Ryan Lightbourn]

Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean will a buy-out or minimum guarantee be worth more than $5-6K? (I hope so!) or are you trying to compare those options to something you havn't told us about?

Ha, no, fortunately. I meant I would spend 5-6K on hardware for a 4K workflow, and spend about a month upscaling everything...so was wondering if there was enough 4K demand to justify the time & money I'll spend on a 4K deliverable.

There are two broadcasters I know of who've told me they're actively looking for 4K content for a 4th quarter launch of programming. I would be ready for it.

That said, the real costs come when referring to V/FX. One of the leading shops in Germany who do studio work say all they do is 2K delivery because the costs for all the extra horsepower (and time) required is not conducive to a studio delivery schedule. For us indie films where there's more time and less cash, it simply means having to figure out a way.

Thanks Jeremy, that's exactly the answer I'm looking for. Luckily most of my VFX is 2D compositing.

 

[Freya]

Ha, no, fortunately. I meant I would spend 5-6K on hardware for a 4K workflow, and spend about a month upscaling everything...so was wondering if there was enough 4K demand to justify the time & money I'll spend on a 4K deliverable.

That's a tough one, it's early days yet for 4K but if you have a potential customer asking for 4K then it kind of answers your question.
I keep hearing that Canadian broadcasters are hot on 4K content.
Also I understand Korea is very interested in 4K content.

As to actual TV's, apparently they are selling in bucket loads to China at the moment.

As an indie filmmaker tho, you probably need to be more concerned about what your potential customers might want (presumably your customers are the studios) as opposed to who has the actual TV's! Unless you are trying to sell direct to the consumer yourself, I assume you are trying to sell to a studio tho!

Aside from 4K, don't forget to keep an eye open for other stuff you may need in the way of deliverables.

Good luck with it!

Freya

 

[francisco santos]

if it dont make dollars it dont make sense. If they are giving you a guarentee than thats different. I think 4-5k is alot of scratch especially if it is not going to make a difference in revenue

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

No broadcasters in Canada I've spoken with -and I met with pretty much all of them last week in Banff- have said anything about 4K. Their broadcast deals certainly don't include 4K deliverables...in fact I'm delivering a 1080P show on HDSR for CBC and they're promptly repackaging it with their elements and putting on the server -ingesting at 145M/Bit and 8-bits of colour. That's what goes out for broadcast. The one thing they have done is get with the times and allow 1080P digital delivery so you don't HAVE to do an SR delivery...for archiving and sub-masters SR is still the shit.

 

[Steve Das]

...One of the studios I'm sending to for consideration said they're "especially interested" if I can provide a 4K deliverable.

Well you probably need to ask that studio since they are the ones who will be paying...if they don't like the film it won't matter if
it's in 720P or 8K. If they like it and want to buy it...then ask how much more they will be willing to pay for a 4K version.

Or just figure out how much you need to make a 4K version worthwhile and see if they are willing to pay that amount oveer a 2K version.

 

[Ryan Lightbourn]

Well you probably need to ask that studio since they are the ones who will be paying...if they don't like the film it won't matter if
it's in 720P or 8K. If they like it and want to buy it...then ask how much more they will be willing to pay for a 4K version.

Or just figure out how much you need to make a 4K version worthwhile and see if they are willing to pay that amount oveer a 2K version.

$5K & 3-4 weeks of my time.

Either way I need to finish VFX before sending it off for an offer. I'd love to do the remaining VFX in 4K (if 4K is actually a worthwhile investment, this will save some time; downscaling the VFX is much simpler than upscaling).

Anybody have experience with sales/distribution? Broadcast doesn't matter so much to me as streaming/VOD services.

 

[Craig Parkes]

Hi Ryan, I am going through this right now. I have produced a feature, very low budget, finished at 4K and HD, have had to send sample footage out to a number of networks - in our case mostly Asia based because of the content on out film, but also because that's where the 4K VOD networks are going online first.

Offers we are getting are for sales that could definitely account for your $5K worth of costs - not so much for your time spent I think, depending on how much your time is worth. PM me and I can give you some insight into ball park numbers.

In saying that - one problem is there is no standard deliverable. Every network I have talked to so far has asked for different formatted sample footage - which leads me to believe they will want deliverables to match their samples.

Then, there is the issue of picture quality - with no standard deliverables, and no tech specs (like say the BBC Standards for HD etc.) - the current networks I'm aware of that are buying content now are pretty much all being put in place by TV Manufacturers - who are interested in picture quality above all else, to help them promote their TVs.

Also being a Micro budget horror - this has created a massive headache for me in terms of what to do with the project - the sample footage I have provided at 4K they have complained about noise. The footage isn't especially noisy, and is actually very well shot - but the DP wasn't afraid to dip towards the noise floor to get the mood of the scene looking good. There are other minor issues throughout that just comes with the territory of shooting ultra low budget on a short time frame - nothing that is problematic for your average viewer - but if the networks are looking for content just to sell TVs, as I find they are at the moment, then they are going to be particularly picky about any such issues, and without any clear QC guidelines to work to you can sort of be flying blind.

So yeah - depends on your project, I'd say, what territories etc. If it looks top notch in 4K there are deals to be had, but I think you have to be realistic and the sort of demand there is at the moment and the type of content they are looking for.

 

[Ryan Lightbourn]

Thanks for the info Craig, just sent you a PM!

 

[Marc Wielage]

I know that Amazon and Netflix are now accepting 4K for delivery (and airing selected 4K titles for streaming), but I haven't seen their specs, and in fact can't find any tech delivery specs on their websites.