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Mantis or Allstar hand held rig ?

D

Dave Blackham

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Advice please.

What are the Pros and Cons of the ET Mantis Rig v the Allstar Shoulder Rig, the obvious being the should Gimbal on the mantis.

http://www.elementtechnica.com/products/view.php?p=29

http://allstar-cine.myweb.hinet.net/

Is the Gimbal that useful and does it help long days with the camera on shoulder ?

Also are there any other shoulder rigs worthy of consideration ?

Our aim here is to go light weight and go between the shoulder and tripod very quickly.

We know both manufacturers have excelent products and use both for other camera accesories.

thanks, Dave
 
As a future Scarlet user there is no way I can justify 25% of the cost of the camera for a ready-built shoulder rig (Mantis), nice tho it is. And of course the $4k+ Clutch would be just silly for my application. Since you have to buy the Allstar piece-meal apparently -not that that is a bad thing- AND it looks to be a less expensive route, maybe this?

I will be looking at cobbling up a custom rig, part of which I would like to incorporate the Innocinema "Razor" shoulder assembly. I think no matter WHICH shoulder-mount rig you look at it is the actual shoulder-pad that will be the deal-breaker! Since most everything else is just handles, plates and rods, there is a world of attachable accessories out there. Can't see getting away with spending close to $1500 by the time you spring for the RED Q-Release as well and battery plates and sundry attachment gadgets. Still, would be nice to put the $1K diff (Mantis + Q Release) to other toys.

Btw the cost of the Must-Have accessories, a BOMB and the SSDs, the camera is going to be one of the cheaper components! ;) I guess in reality this just underlines the amazing price-point that RED is able to bring this revolutionary tech to the market. It makes the mundane stuff seem expensive!

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
As someone who has used both.

The Mantis is good. Very good. It's super solid and the adjustable shoulder pad is perfect for helping keep the horizon level and taking the strain off your shoulder. Adjustments are easy to make and everything tightens up easily and stays put.

The Allstar rig... not so good. It is reasonably built but doesn't feel as solid as the mantis. Some of the adjustments your really have to tighten up hard and even then they still can slip a little. The grips are nicer than the Mantis. The shoulder pad is comfortable but the foam is held on with velcro and I can see it coming apart with use. It would be perfectly fine for personal use as long as you are prepared to replace the shoulder pad foam down the track. I think it would fail a torture test though.

That said the Mantis is twice the price of the Allstar. Is it twice as good? Maybe not. If you need absolute confidence in your gear, go the Mantis. If you need to save some bux, go the Allstar.

Only reason I looked at these rigs is because I bought into the DSMC quick release system with the arri dovetail compatibility. Second time around I might have gone for a full Brook Willard FMJ and maybe the Innocinema stuff. With the DSMC QR and the dovetail and all that, by the time you put it on a Mantis or Allstar the CG of the camera is very high. I think both rigs need a counterweight mod hung down off the end of the shoulder pad... or mount your batteries down there somehow - make the rig less top-heavy.
 
I've been putting together a system made from both, and more. Will post pics once I get it all in. Similar to what Ketch has done.

ET Mantis dovetail / shoulderpad
Allstar grips
Allstar Rails
RED Dovetail Quick Release
RED Collarbone and dog bones
Wooden Camera Universal Mounts
RED lightweight Assault Pack
 
Hudson Tanimoto said:
I think both rigs need a counterweight mod hung down off the end of the shoulder pad... or mount your batteries down there somehow - make the rig less top-heavy.
Click to expand...

Agreed Hudson- some method of hanging battery over the BACK of the shoulder, attached to the shoulder pad, NOT the back of the camera...

Jarek - look forward to your photos!

I think the best value/performance is going to come from some sort of hybridized custom rig rather than a one-stop solution. I am driving myself buggy trying to copy/paste/visualize bits from a dozen manufacturers to hit the sweet spot of affordable function. Well, RED does tout these cameras in a million possible combos. yike!

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
Dave Blackham said:
Advice please.

What are the Pros and Cons of the ET Mantis Rig v the Allstar Shoulder Rig, the obvious being the should Gimbal on the mantis.

http://www.elementtechnica.com/products/view.php?p=29

http://allstar-cine.myweb.hinet.net/

Is the Gimbal that useful and does it help long days with the camera on shoulder ?

Also are there any other shoulder rigs worthy of consideration ?

Our aim here is to go light weight and go between the shoulder and tripod very quickly.

We know both manufacturers have excelent products and use both for other camera accesories.

thanks, Dave
Click to expand...

What camera do you plan on mounting on either of these? The gimbal on the shoulder pad of the Mantis does make it more comfortable and stay on your shoulder better. Also, there IS a V mount on the shoulder pad for a battery that gives a nice balance if needed. It does make the camera ride higher and with the new options for Epic, I'd be more interested in them versus either of these two units, and I own the Mantis. The other downside to the Mantis is not being able to fold it up compactly enough to fit in a case. There are several options now for an Epic that would be much more compact. The Mantis is a great rig for the R1 since the EVF can be mounted on the Mantis below the camera, saving one's neck from straining. It would have the same option for an Epic too, but the camera will ride higher than other options being sold nowadays.
 
Don't forget Zacuto does the Zgrips which can slide onto your 15/19 rails... the adjustment they have looks handy... for all you hybrid solution seekers
 
For our needs R1 but shortly to be Epic. However we may want to use other German and Japanese cameras so its more of a customisable shoulder mount.

I agree that the best rig may be built from combined components from both or we profesionally custom build a sort of dog leg dovetail to mount Epic so its COG is lower and its in front of your shoulder.

My reason for asking is backed up by you guys comments as what we want isnt made in one manufactuers product or at least we havnt found it yet.

I think for now we will plan on custom building a composite of both with lower slung battery on the shoulder mount. One thing that Allstar do have is a real neat dual base plate that can be split to keel the weight down.

Ill try to work out a plan to build what we eventualy create but would welcome any ideas on this.

thanks !
 
Also no one has mentioned the Clutch yet ?
 
+1 Mantis.

For myself as an operator the most important thing about shooting with a hand held camera is getting the cameras center of gravity as close to your shoulder as possible. It makes the difference between a steady shot and an unusable one. The difference between working all day and being fatigued after 20 minutes. Lots of these DLSR rigs and even the Red Clutch all seem to put the camera way to forward IMHO.

The Mantis does a good job putting the grips where I want them and shifting the weight of the camera (Red One) far enough back that the center of gravity is on my shoulder. Moving from handheld to sticks is pretty quick since you would slide the camera off the dovetail with rods/accessories staying on the bridgeplate and move the whole schmozzle over to the Mantis.
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
+1 Mantis.

For myself as an operator the most important thing about shooting with a hand held camera is getting the cameras center of gravity as close to your shoulder as possible. It makes the difference between a steady shot and an unusable one. The difference between working all day and being fatigued after 20 minutes. Lots of these DLSR rigs and even the Red Clutch all seem to put the camera way to forward IMHO.

The Mantis does a good job putting the grips where I want them and shifting the weight of the camera (Red One) far enough back that the center of gravity is on my shoulder. Moving from handheld to sticks is pretty quick since you would slide the camera off the dovetail with rods/accessories staying on the bridgeplate and move the whole schmozzle over to the Mantis.
Click to expand...
Can I just ask, with the camera up on your sholder, does it influence the angle of the shot much? For instance, do you now need to be either a little guy or keep yourself small to compensate for this? I don't see many rigs that have the camer at a lower angle, for instance under the shoulder. To me it seems if you get the camera lower, you can have a more "full person" shot. What's your experiance and view on this?
 
Hi, Allstar shoulder pad can slip under camera to make the center of gravity to be on/near your shoulder and we try to raise the camera as less as possibly.
the 19mm handle clamper can`t clamp very solid if your camera is very heavy, so I suggest you can choose this handle:
IMG_3923.JPG

This bundle just only $700 :
IMG_0821s.JPG


If you want to get the lowest center of gravity and lightest weight, you can consider this:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?60199-Upgrade-Allstar-Dual-Bridge-plate-for-EPIC

If you have any suggestion or question please let me know for improvement.
 
Hey Adam - you just CAN'T bang that down on the table and walk away!!!
;)

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
stu aull said:
Hey Adam - you just CAN'T bang that down on the table and walk away!!!
;)

Stu Aull
Alaska
Click to expand...

:) I wish I could share more right now. Hoping to have it ready to ship around the end of the month. I'll get you more details as soon as I can.
 
There are two schools of thought here at our workshop.

1. Those who like to have a shoulder gimbal ie the camera plate constantly moves in relation to the shoulder pad.

2. Those guys that want the shoulder pad to be fixed to the plate.

I guess making the gimbal ajustable then lock it off would be a cool.

Whats the consensus here, constant gimbal movement or no gimbal movement or ajustable shoulder pad ?
 
hmmm - if by gimbal you mean a _constantly_ pivot-able pad then, no. Adjust-and-lock, yes...

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
I never understood using the grips that extend and hang really low out in front of you. Personally i like my grips as close to the lens as i can get. I feel like I'm actually holding the image and have more control that way. All these Zacuto-esq spindly setups look ridiculous to me. Not knocking Zacuto, best baseplates in town, but the contraptions they put togther for dslrs and small cameras look like jetpacks! I'd be afraid of walking around and knocking stuff over with those!
 
The long handles are far better for stability and fatigue... but yes if you want the 'hands on' feel then go with shorter handles.

The Mantis gimbal locks off - in case anyone is wondering. Nice mechanism too for adjusting it.
 
I'm considering buying into this system as well:

http://www.innocinema.com/index.php?cPath=42

Great that it can be mounted in so many configurations, to an arri bridge plate or directly to a riser. Seems to be best way of getting the camera very low like in the photo.

It's just unfortunate that the best balance for handheld make use of Red Bricks, as I was hoping to get by with only volts since I'm Stage 2 and will be getting the Quad Redvolt Module.
 

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