Maintaining high quality through VFX and Color

[Scotty Fox]

I saw a similar post in this forum but I didn't want to hijack the conversation. So I'm posting here with a specific question in the same subject.

I have r3d files, completed an offline edit with apple prores 1080p, transcoded from the RAW.

Ready to move to VFX and Color. Now I know you can dynamic link files in Premiere Pro to After Effects. But the issue is I'm mastering in 2K and the work is being done on different comps.

So I'm going to give some r3d files to the VFX artist to work on. Then once he's done, how does he give them back to me from AE without downgrading on the export? Is there a way for AE to maintain the r3d file once you've completed VFX on it?

Once I have those files back, I was going to give them to the colorist (Resolve possibly) and he'd finish the final grade. Then he'd export something like Apple ProRes 4444 for me to bring into Premiere (or again, is there a way to keep the r3d file?)

I'd then add my final music and sfx and then I'm done. But then I'm exporting again and I assume downgrading.

So how do I achieve VFX work, and then color, but maintaining the best quality for the final export? Especially when you're giving the footage to different people on different computers to do their specific jobs? If it was all on one computer I feel like it'd be much easier.

Thank you.

 

[John Schick]

There's a few ways to do this. One of the keys to maintaining quality, is if everyone adheres to the same workflow - keeping the results consistent.

You should always remember to set your project to 32bpc (After Effects defaults to 8bpc :blink.

Also, you want to set your R3D's White Balance / ISO / etc. first, before you do the vfx.

After the vfx work, you could render out ProRes4444, or for the maximum quality maybe a tiff / exr image sequence (make sure the color grading app supports the format). You're going to lose the R3D metadata at this point - no getting around that, but any other adjustments can be done during the grade.

 

[Scotty Fox]

hmmm... I thought there was a way to ensure working with the RAW files through the grade. Some of the shots were underexposed, etc. Will not working with the r3d files during the grade cause a problem in correcting these issues? I was told by some other VFX people not to mess with color during the VFX work, but to match as closely as possible with the original r3d.

Now I'm confused. Ah!:crazy:

 

[John Schick]

That's correct - you can grade the R3D files directly. But if you want to do any vfx work on a shot, it will need to be rendered out first before bringing it into a color grading program (and losing the metadata for that shot).

I agree that it is best not to alter the R3D settings too much before the vfx. The goal would be to get the clip to a good starting point. Anything other than setting your White Balance & ISO (exposure) can wait until after the vfx work. For example, if the clip is underexposed, I would raise the ISO before starting the vfx - if that makes sense.

Some of the other raw R3D metadata tools (curves, lift, gamma, gain, saturation, etc.) can be found in a grading program like Resolve.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Trick is to set up an signal-chain that makes things consistent.

One way to do that, would be to render out the things to VFX in 16-bit linear or RedLogFilm (talk with them, do tests and see what they work the best with) with pretty flat settings, and give the same files to the colorist for the scenes in question. (not the R3Ds but the VFX files)

Then the VFX guys could match their comps to the material they get, and render it back out to the same color and gamma-space, and chances are high it would match pretty well with the material the colorist have.

Setting up stuff like this is not really hard in itself, but if there are tricky exposures involved, I would suggest doing some signal-chain tests or hiring someone who has done this well before (depending on production time/money/competence).

Done in a bad way. the results can be pretty shitty.


Done well... well then it is a "workflow"

The VFX guys could also work directly from the R3Ds, but you would have to agree on metadatasettings and stick to them...

Testing and communication are two keywords. It is not really "hard"

 

[Marc Wielage]

So how do I achieve VFX work, and then color, but maintaining the best quality for the final export? Especially when you're giving the footage to different people on different computers to do their specific jobs? If it was all on one computer I feel like it'd be much easier.

I would talk to your VFX people and ask them what they prefer. Ideally, you need to have a post supervisor and/or a VFX supervisor working on your project and making these decisions, especially if you haven't done it before.

Jeremy Selan of Sony Pictures Imageworks has a free 55-page Siggraph white paper from 2012, Cinematic Color, that explains how color management works throughout the VFX pipeline:

http://cinematiccolor.com/

The key is just to make sure all the monitors are calibrated to a common standard and a common color space, and the VFX artists can work with uncompressed files whenever possible, in a file format compatible with their specific software. DPX files are pretty typical. Once that's done, the final color-correction path hinges on how you have to deliver it to the distributor.

I personally don't think Raw is absolutely mandatory, but having Log color space is important to give the colorist and artists some room to achieve the final look you want. As one example, going from R3D through RedLogFilm to DPX should work OK, in my experience, assuming you're viewing in Rec709. But the decision really has to be made by the VFX artists.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I would talk to your VFX people and ask them what they prefer. Ideally, you need to have a post supervisor and/or a VFX supervisor working on your project and making these decisions, especially if you haven't done it before. ...

I think that's the best advice. I also think u need to be very precise in what you ask the vfx people to do, I like to isolate things into the following work areas: camera solves, wire removal and clean plating, 3d object creation, rendering, and compositing. Vfx is a too vague a word now a days ( I.e. I don't think compositing and cleanup belongs in vfx, others do). Almost everyone I know uses openexr in their vfx workflow, and normally output on some log format (ie Dpx).

 

[Scotty Fox]

Thanks for the replies. This is the real issue. I haven't done this before. I'm a writer/director and most post stuff I do is strictly editing. I know some about visual effects, but NOT NEARLY ENOUGH by any means.

So with small budgets, you end up doing a lot of things yourself, or getting less experienced people. So already I'm at a disadvantage because the VFX people I may use, probably don't know a whole lot of this, or have calibrated monitors, etc., etc. Not complaining, I mean everybody making small projects is in this boat so.

I'm still looking for a VFX artist in the SoCal area. And colorist. I've spoken to a few people but it's been hit or miss.

I was almost thinking if worse came to worse I could use something like magic bullet or other lower end CCing software. Though I haven't used that stuff in years and have no idea what kind of finished product it gives you.

On that note, what are .dpx files? Do they hold onto the metadata? So it's close to its RAW state? I imagine it's much better than uncompressed, or something like ProRes 4444?

Thanks for everybody's patience in answering my questions. It does help.

 

[paulherrin]

Jeremy Selan of Sony Pictures Imageworks has a free 55-page Siggraph white paper from 2012, Cinematic Color, that explains how color management works throughout the VFX pipeline:

http://cinematiccolor.com/

I personally don't think Raw is absolutely mandatory, but having Log color space is important to give the colorist and artists some room to achieve the final look you want. As one example, going from R3D through RedLogFilm to DPX should work OK, in my experience, assuming you're viewing in Rec709. But the decision really has to be made by the VFX artists.

great resource marc, thanks for sharing

simple, generalized answer:
you need to do a basic raw-color (debayer) process to set your white balance and exposure generally in the range where you want it for each shot (or batch), set gamma to redlogfilm, and export a dpx sequence.

a dpx file is a common uncompressed image file format for vfx/color/post-production. tiff and exr are both valid alternatives (which include additional channels). talk to your artists...

i'm going to recommend you do a lot of research/study. that means reading A LOT. that looks like typing stuff into google. that could also look like talking to artists/professionals (including what you're doing right now). at a certain point, you've just got to start poring over all the material that's out there and available, a lot of which is free.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Visual-Effects-Producer-Understanding/dp/0240812638

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Compositing-Video-Steve-Wright/dp/024081309X

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Technique-Digital-Color-Correction/dp/024081715X

 

[PatrickFaith]

I've read those books and they are excellent, While reading the books take some after effects classes on Lynda.com so u have a practical reference point.

 

[Scotty Fox]

Cool guys thank you.

I've printed out some of that material and began reading last night. Great information.

I've talked to a couple VFX guys and they to mentioned the r3d to redlogfilm to .dpx.

If I choose to open up the r3d files in REDCineX, and white balance, etc. to set a base look, is there any way to store that info (RMD?), so that I can allow the vfx guys to simply start with the r3d with my corrections, then go to .dpx when they export?

Not sure if there's a real difference there in allowing them to start with the .r3d, or if it makes it more complicated. I'll pose this question to them as well. I'm reading more about .dpx, but in short it looks like this holds the same info or very close to the original RAW file.

Thanks for all the tips and help. I'll get back to reading.

 

[paulherrin]

yes, you can do that with rmd files. r3d files will be smaller filesizes than dpx sequences. you can also go ahead and trim the r3d content beforehand. for vfx (or color) i definitely prefer to get r3d's - but with bigger projects and more people things can get complicated/screwed without someone managing/supervising post (which should be happening anyway)

 

[Scotty Fox]

yes, you can do that with rmd files.

I have to try this later when I get home with the footage, but you can just save as RMD? And that will give me the corresponding rmd file for the r3d file whose metadata I just altered? And I would give both to the artist.

you can also go ahead and trim the r3d content beforehand.

That's what I was thinking of doing. But then I was thinking that if I clean up my timeline (which I plan on doing) for either a 2K for 1080p master, before or while the VFX and color is going on. Once I get those clips back, I was hoping to just relink instead of waiting for the finished files to come back to do this. If I trim clips as they go out, doesn't that cause some errors when relinking?

Either way I need to clean up my timeline because the offline edit became a beast.

 

[Marc Wielage]

If I choose to open up the r3d files in REDCineX, and white balance, etc. to set a base look, is there any way to store that info (RMD?), so that I can allow the vfx guys to simply start with the r3d with my corrections, then go to .dpx when they export?

A better choice I think would be to export some normal QuickTime or DPX files with your temporary color-correction baked in as a reference just to show the VFX people the intent of the shot. Then what they'd actually use would be the DPX log file, then take that and apply a color correction while the composite is dropped in using a LUT. With the LUT turned off, the whole scene (original camera footage and VFX) will be in Log space and should work for color correction. As long as everybody is using that same LUT, it should work, assuming the monitors have all been calibrated correctly.

Another very fine book put out in association with the Visual Effects Society is the VES Handbook of Visual Effects, which is pretty exhaustive in going over all the basics (960 pages). But I think this is far more than a director or a normal producer needs to know. Another book, The Visual Effects Producer, goes over the need for storyboards, how to set up budgets, and how to set up a schedule, and I think this might be more practical assuming you're working with established VFX artists and companies.

But in truth, you really need a post supervisor and (preferably) a VFX supervisor as well, just to avoid going over budget and screwing up the schedule. I've seen some pretty ugly messes when delivered effects weren't done right and there just wasn't any time available to redo them. In one memorable occasion, I had about 20 VFX shots that were delivered to me for a feature, and the color on them was all over the place. I hit the roof and insisted that they be redone... but the VFX company had gone out of business the week before (!), and the people responsible had already left and were working on a new project. Drove me crazy. We got the movie done, but this is a clear case where the post supervisor was not keeping tabs on what the VFX people were doing.