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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Magma ExpressBox 3T or Sonnet Echo Express Pro Thunderbolt Expansion Chassis

As far as I know the red rocket only uses x4 lanes for playback and x4 for transcoding, I get about the same performance with the Rocket using the new MBPR, 2011 MBP 17", or a 2010 x8 core Tower. What you'll notice is each system using around half it's resources to transcode 1080p at around 23 fps at 5k 8:1 16x9 files. A new MBA or older quad tower will max its resources and might get 15-18 fps. That's using an LSI HBA 9750 SAS raid, raid 5 mini tower, and red rocket with each. No major transcoding difference between the Magma or Sonnet as far as I've noticed.
 
Rocket doesn't use anything for transcoding, all it does is the wavelet decode and debayer of the R3D frames and then scaling for output. It ALWAYS does a full quality, full resolution decompress and debayer and then scales down from there as needed for delivery back to the system. Not sure what you mean that the Rocket only uses X4 for playback... In a proper X8 or better slot, it's pretty easy to get it better throughput than 1000MB/s from a Rocket. It does sound like you have a bottleneck somewhere, but without more info on what you're transcoding to, what software you're using, etc.. it's hard to say what it would be. If you're transcoding to ProRes, the bottleneck is usually the codec itself as it's not really multi-threaded. And even if it were, you would only gain a couple more fps as the Rocket can only handle about 28~30fps for 5K 2:1 at normally used compression ratios.

The rate at which a system plays back or transcodes is primarily dependent on its CPUs and memory speeds. The Rocket is only capable of delivering frames so fast anyway. 5KFF epic footage recorded at 8:1, give or take a level, usually can be decoded by the Rocket at about 25fps. The Rocket can sustain that as long as the system can feed it the R3D data fast enough to keep pace and it has a place to go with the data once returned from the Rocket -- such as spooling up in RAM for playback.
 
This is where this discussion really starts to confuse me -

seems like Shiblon is saying that in a real-world scenario, where he is using both boxes, that there is not a noticeable speed difference between the Sonnet and the Magma

but Jeff is indicating that the Magma should be faster, in theory, up to 19.2% - at least, I think that is what you're saying, Jeff -

or am I to understand that the Magma will be faster once Thunderbolt is more fully implemented (optical cables, upgraded specs, etc.) and is not currently living up to its full possibility for throughput -

and that Magma's current edge has more to do with its more flexible configuration than it has to do with speed -

of course, Sonnet's edge, for me, was that I was able to buy one off the shelf three weeks ago....kind of a biggie!

I'm just trying to wrap my puny brain around what is actual to real-world usage and what is theoretical to the discussion - both matter to me, I am just having a hard time distinguishing.
 
We're saying once you hit a certain level of performance, reduce all the bottlenecks, the real world performance of the rocket is limited to around 23-25 fps, when transcoding epic 5k footage. At this point the red rocket is becoming the bottleneck for most high end systems.
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
This is where this discussion really starts to confuse me -

seems like Shiblon is saying that in a real-world scenario, where he is using both boxes, that there is not a noticeable speed difference between the Sonnet and the Magma

but Jeff is indicating that the Magma should be faster, in theory, up to 19.2% - at least, I think that is what you're saying, Jeff -
Click to expand...

In theory yes, but as we all know the real-world performance of most hardware never lives up to the numbers. In most situations, especially where people are working in 2K/1080p and lower output resolutions from the Rocket, we'll never get close to any maximum bandwidth numbers.

And while the Magma is theoretically faster, we know nothing about their actual PCIe controller implementation inside the box or a multitude of other things. It's entirely possible that when push comes to shove and if all aspects of the two different expansion boxes are benchmarked and scrutinized in detail, there's a chance the Sonnet could be faster. They may have the superior or more streamlined implementation.

or am I to understand that the Magma will be faster once Thunderbolt is more fully implemented (optical cables, upgraded specs, etc.) and is not currently living up to its full possibility for throughput -[/qutoe]

The Magma box, as I understand it, is more modular and can be upgraded with different host interfaces. So when faster versions of Thunderbolt arrive on the market, it could be a theoretically cheaper prospect to upgrade your Magma box than to replace it with a new Magma or Sonnet. But as the hardware currently exists, no, it won't get faster with newer flavors of Thunderbolt.

and that Magma's current edge has more to do with its more flexible configuration than it has to do with speed
Click to expand...

That's the way I look at it. The difference in speed is going to be negligible, if any.

of course, Sonnet's edge, for me, was that I was able to buy one off the shelf three weeks ago....kind of a biggie!
Click to expand...

True that. I have yet to get my hands on the Magma. But I own both sizes of the Sonnet enclosure.

I'm just trying to wrap my puny brain around what is actual to real-world usage and what is theoretical to the discussion - both matter to me, I am just having a hard time distinguishing.
Click to expand...

I'd love to get a Magma 3T here for some side-by-side testing. Although at this point, I have no reason to actually buy one. I'm probably going to be selling my larger Sonnet enclosure. Sure, that's the one I need to fit the RED Rocket, but the Rocket does me more good installed in a tower than in a semi-portable expansion box. It's too cumbersome to lug with me in the field and I can't haul enough power to run it and everything else. When I sit at a workstation to crunch through R3D's, I'm in front of a Mac Pro or Z820. The iMac is great and all for things like Photoshop, illustrator, email, etc.. OK, I take that back, the iMac also edits R3D footage in Premiere just fine without a Rocket. I can send my edits to the Z820 for color/finish and final render.

Shiblon Wixom said:
We're saying once you hit a certain level of performance, reduce all the bottlenecks, the real world performance of the rocket is limited to around 23-25 fps, when transcoding epic 5k footage. At this point the red rocket is becoming the bottleneck for most high end systems.
Click to expand...

And in that we are in complete agreement. Yes, the Rocket can only chew through 5K at about 25fps. So you need two of them to go faster. Which is not practical for mobile/Thunderbolt installations and even with a tower system, it's debatable. I own two Rocket cards (one in a Mac Pro, one in a Z820) and if one were to die, I probably wouldn't replace it. By this time next year with the Ivy Bridge Xeons available, I would really question the need for a Rocket. There are times I question it now... Sure, it has its uses and for those trying to do transcodes of all footage for a production, it's a great tool.
Click to expand...
 
got it - thank you for the clarifications. that helps a lot.

I did hand off my Sonnet box to some friends with GTX cards - they were able to see them, but the drivers did not drive them - so no CUDA implementation that I can confirm - they did not have a Quadro card, but based on these attempts, I think it is a no-go.

I have to say, I think the Sonnet box is working very well for me. My new DIT set-up is an iMac 27'' and a mac mini in a 1510 peli with a 17'' screen - this gives me three Thunderbolt channels to run copies and move around storage and a 2k playback screen. I don't miss the tower. Everything moves fast with Thunderbolt and an external SSD storage drive, which I can swap between computers. Being able to play back on a 2k screen with the Rocket in the Sonnet enclosure is nice, and transcodes are considerably faster than I anticipated. I power it with a 2800w Lifan generator. It is a pretty good field set-up actually.

If I could find a way to add CUDA acceleration, it would be perfect. That is the missing link.
 
A question to you Sonnet thunderbolt owners: So you get SDI/DVI out of your card? I'm just trying to figure out if my card is defective. At the moment the card seems to be working except for getting any feed from the HDSDI ports.

thanks.
 
Bob Gundu said:
A question to you Sonnet thunderbolt owners: So you get SDI/DVI out of your card? I'm just trying to figure out if my card is defective. At the moment the card seems to be working except for getting any feed from the HDSDI ports.

thanks.
Click to expand...


First, you must enable your SDI feed out....did you do this when you click on the rocket emblem in the viewer---the setup menu appears and you must setup your video feed out...
 
Johnny Friday said:
First, you must enable your SDI feed out....did you do this when you click on the rocket emblem in the viewer---the setup menu appears and you must setup your video feed out...
Click to expand...



Thanks Johnny. I have just discovered that the second SDI port is not functioning properly. Bummer :(
 
Bob Gundu said:
Thanks Johnny. I have just discovered that the second SDI port is not functioning properly. Bummer :(
Click to expand...

Are you certain? You know that in single link modes the second SDI output does nothing – it does not mirror the first output.
 
just to revive this thread a bit, i've successfully gotten 4 cards to work over thundebolt. 3 in the magma, and one in the owc 1 slot chassis. owc has an r680 hooked up to a 8 bay 2.5 in raid, magma has rocket, h680 and a kona 3. i've pretty much got myself a mini tower setup right now running 4 cards like this. rendering 600 gb worth of 5k ws, 3:1 footage as I'm typing this, and i'm getting real time on the renders in scratch all off a 17 inch macbook pro.

few interesting things

the r680 needs to be in the beginning of the daisy chain opposed to the magma. otherwise my raid keeps unmounting. if i put the r680 first, my raid runs fine.

for some reason it matters which port i'm piping data via tb into, and where i'm daisy chaining out of. took a while to figure that one out.

the cards show up pci e lanes wise

rocket 8x
h680 4x
r680 4x
kona... doesn't show how many lanes it's using. I'm guessing the system doesn't know what to do with itself at this point, so I'm thinking it's using 1x or 2x at the moment, but the kona works fine for playout. running it out of fcp and scratch no problems.

everything I do working with r3d I can do on my laptop now, which is great, cause lugging a tower around all the time is such a major pain for location work. i still need to bust out the tower for some really heavy duty stuff, but i don't have to take it on every job now. certainly not for r3d anymore.

doing torture tests all week, but so far it's pretty stable, but the magma DOES get insanely hot. airflow just isn't as good as the sonnet. the stock fan that comes with it is horrible. i replaced it with a cool master that's double in rpm's as an exhaust for the front which is doing a better job. but i'm thinking of figuring out a way to mod it so i can have a few intakes as well to bring cool air into the unit. that's my major con about the magma, the cooling for it is just abysmal. anybody who builds pc's knows the importance of proper airflow. it's just dead hot air being pumped out slowly with no cool air to take its place.
 
Don't burn up those expensive HBAs...

Don't burn up those expensive HBAs...

Tom.Wong said:
doing torture tests all week, but so far it's pretty stable, but the magma DOES get insanely hot. airflow just isn't as good as the sonnet. the stock fan that comes with it is horrible. i replaced it with a cool master that's double in rpm's as an exhaust for the front which is doing a better job. but i'm thinking of figuring out a way to mod it so i can have a few intakes as well to bring cool air into the unit. that's my major con about the magma, the cooling for it is just abysmal. anybody who builds pc's knows the importance of proper airflow. it's just dead hot air being pumped out slowly with no cool air to take its place.
Click to expand...
This might be a very good reason to consider two separate Sonnet Echo Express units. This would accommodate all of your cards and cooling wouldn't be an issue.

BTW - I'm running 2 R680's in a EE Pro performing cross-array backup and restore tests (almost 100% I/O processing) and the temp never rises much above ambient.

Tim
 
On a side note, does anyone have the Blackmagic Decklink SDI in their sonnet? I get intermittent flicker when using Premier, Davinici, or media express. The RedRocket on the other hand works perfect while also using the broadcast monitor.
 
Eric, I'm still online and refuse to upgrade to mountain lion until there is a very specific reason for me to. Something like, a new awesome update for a piece of software only works on mountain lion, etc. I stayed on snow leopard for the longest time until I was forced to upgrade for that very reason. I'm gonna keep on that trend, and usually i let the bugs get worked out by then. no point in upgrading to a OS that has very little to offer to me other than a few "ipad" like tools.



Tim, two sonnet's may work as well, but I haven't tried it. not sure how the system would recognize those slots, and if it would trick the system like I have. they are good units, but other than the cooling issue, i really like the magma. it's much easier to swap cards, which I do often. and most of the time I AM in a 3 card configuration. so the magma already fits the bill on all fronts. but in the end, the small setup i have still comes out cheaper than having two sonnet's, once I can get the cooling locked down the system is gonna be rock solid. (i hope) but time will tell.

plus in my mind, i really like seeing my rocket show up as 8x, let's me know nothing is wrong with the card. cause i have had a rocket card that wouldn't stop showing up as 4x... and had to get it replaced :(
 
Tom.Wong said:
Eric, I'm still online and refuse to upgrade to mountain lion until there is a very specific reason for me to...
Click to expand...

I hear yaa, Im just testing the Rocket now.
Are the Magmas available?
I would still like to give them a shot.
 
is the Magma box available yet? The website says that it started shipping on July 20th, but it seems to be out of stock already. Does anyone have info on wait times until this is available?

My Sonnet box has already paid for itself, but I do like the idea of a faster lane for future Thunderbolt upgrades, even if it isn't currently relevant. With three slots, the Magma is definitely priced competitively - but when can we buy them off the shelf?
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
is the Magma box available yet? The website says that it started shipping on July 20th, but it seems to be out of stock already. Does anyone have info on wait times until this is available?

My Sonnet box has already paid for itself, but I do like the idea of a faster lane for future Thunderbolt upgrades, even if it isn't currently relevant. With three slots, the Magma is definitely priced competitively - but when can we buy them off the shelf?
Click to expand...

I pre-ordered, no sense of pressing refresh on the web link :)
 
After testing a Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro on this Echo Express Pro, I feel the 1/4 setting is fine with us here.
Thinking of not installing the RED ROCKET since we wont get more than 1/2 res playback.
The main purpose of this Retina/Echo set-up is for playback with no exporting in mind.
Anyone else feel the same?
 
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