MacRumors: Apple's New 8-Core Mac Pro Shows Up in Benchmarks

[FrankMcPartland]

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/09/27/apples-new-8-core-mac-pro-shows-up-in-benchmarks/

 

[Louis Maddalena]

Looks awesome, can't wait to get my hands on a new mac pro with the Dragon.

 

[Brian Merlen]

i cant wait for them to release the price point. although many people have tried to say to me how i don't need pci slots i just don't get it. we need our capture cards, our rockets, our multi gpu, cuda, whatever it is. i guess external or stand alone solutions will take its place, but at what costs is my concern, even these cheap thunderbolt 1 external slots cost more to people then the traditional tower form factor, which allows for so much expandability. might make wintel a much cheaper workstation option so i look forward to seeing where the price points land....


or conversely this is the mac mini pro people have always wanted? the headless imac of much lore? who knows...

 

[Mike Halper]

That's why I built a Hackintosh. The minimum on these new Mac Pros is probably going to be around $4K for 8 cores, one GPU, 16GB RAM, and 1TB SSD. Add $ for 12 cores, dual GPU, and 64GB RAM and you're up at $8K, maybe more. Then add the cost of Thunderbolt expansion chassis. Many would probably want a HBA, Rocket, maybe a RAID controller. And if you want each of those to run at full speed (Rocket nd Rocket-X is at least x8, Atto HBA is x8, Atto RAID is x8), that's 3 expansion chassis, so add another ~$2,500. If you've already got a capture card and don't want to switch to a Thunderbolt version (i.e. UltraStudio 4K), then still add another expansion chassis for that. So you're looking at $10K-$11K for a maxed out Mac Pro system with everything you need.

For that money you can build a dual CPU 24-core Xeon E5 v2, dual Titan or 780, basically getting you double the power and you don't have to deal with a bunch of Thunderbolt cables, power cords, and different boxes and devices all over the place.

Not only that, you can upgrade your own custom computer in any way you want at any time you want. With Mac Pro you're locked into whatever storage and GPU Apple makes available, and they may not even allow upgrades of those. We already know the GPU isn't a standard form factor. I'd guess that the CPU is soldered in like the new iMacs and MacBook Pros. So if you want to upgrade you have to sell and buy a whole new Mac Pro. For portability, this concept works fine for MacBook Pros. For a desktop, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Antony Newman]

If the new paradigm is "we need computers with enough CPU power and memory bandwidth to feed the GPUs", and 2 x FirePro GPUs is enough to allow responsive real-time feedback from software so as not to get the way creatively - then I would happily pay more for this compact form factor.

With such a high speed computer to computer interconnect (TB2) - perhaps more software writers will write their code from the ground up to run on multiple 'compute' units linked together? I hope so - I'd love a system that load balances, one in which I can buy a 2016 Mac Pro to Augment what I already own.

AJ

 

[M Most]

That's why I built a Hackintosh. The minimum on these new Mac Pros is probably going to be around $4K for 8 cores, one GPU, 16GB RAM, and 1TB SSD. Add $ for 12 cores, dual GPU, and 64GB RAM and you're up at $8K, maybe more. Then add the cost of Thunderbolt expansion chassis. Many would probably want a HBA, Rocket, maybe a RAID controller. And if you want each of those to run at full speed (Rocket nd Rocket-X is at least x8, Atto HBA is x8, Atto RAID is x8), that's 3 expansion chassis, so add another ~$2,500. If you've already got a capture card and don't want to switch to a Thunderbolt version (i.e. UltraStudio 4K), then still add another expansion chassis for that. So you're looking at $10K-$11K for a maxed out Mac Pro system with everything you need.

Since no pricing has actually been announced, you're making wild guesses here and seemingly trying to pass them off as facts by which others should base their buying decisions. I'm also sensing a very significant fear of change, something that shouldn't exist on RedUser for obvious reasons, but always does when one brings up the subject of Apple vs. other computer platforms as these conversations always wind up being religious arguments.

The fact is that no pricing has been announced, companion products have not been announced, the performance and availability of Thunderbolt 2 peripherals have not been tested or announced, the need for all of the things you now need in a slot based design and whether those same needs exist in Apple's new design has not been established, and the relevance of current technology in the face of new technology is questionable. Until these things are revealed, known, and tested there is no sensible basis for the kind of speculation you're doing.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

What Mr. Most said! :smiley:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Since no pricing has actually been announced, you're making wild guesses here and seemingly trying to pass them off as facts by which others should base their buying decisions. I'm also sensing a very significant fear of change, something that shouldn't exist on RedUser for obvious reasons, but always does when one brings up the subject of Apple vs. other computer platforms as these conversations always wind up being religious arguments.

Um.. Yep.

The fact is that no pricing has been announced, companion products have not been announced, the performance and availability of Thunderbolt 2 peripherals have not been tested or announced, the need for all of the things you now need in a slot based design and whether those same needs exist in Apple's new design has not been established, and the relevance of current technology in the face of new technology is questionable. Until these things are revealed, known, and tested there is no sensible basis for the kind of speculation you're doing.

Pretty much. And given the new paradigm here for GPUs and other components within the new Mac Pro, the newness of Thunderbolt 2 and unpredictability of third party support, I would question anyone who's thinking of buying a new Mac Pro as a replacement for a current Mac Pro tower. I see this come up a lot. People commenting about how they're going to replace their current tower and then go on to try and ascertain how they're going to connect their existing peripherals and storage. The answer is a muddled mess of yet to be released Thunderbolt 2 expansion hardware and upcoming Thunderbolt interface adapters that go beyond the current TB1 to PCIe expander where you drop your SAS, Fiber, 10GE, etc.. adapter into a clunky box that's nearly as large as the new Mac Pro itself.

For these reasons, I expect the industry to move rather rapidly toward building native Thunderbolt2 peripherals, rather than looking to PCIe expanders as a form of intermediary solution. Yet, nothing much has been announced. I think peripheral makers are taking a wait and see with this one.

Also for these reasons, I expect that Apple will continue selling the existing Mac Pro tower for some time. I also expect resale values on existing 2010~2012 Mac Pro 5,1 systems to remain high and even increase if Apple does pull the plug on their production. While these benchmarks show a lot of promise for the new system, they should also serve as a reminder that a current 12-core Mac Pro tower is still a more than capable system and should not be brushed off so quickly.

 

[Mike Halper]

With such a high speed computer to computer interconnect (TB2) - perhaps more software writers will write their code from the ground up to run on multiple 'compute' units linked together? I hope so - I'd love a system that load balances, one in which I can buy a 2016 Mac Pro to Augment what I already own.

There's nothing that's been stated that you can have a computer-to-computer connection between the new Mac Pros via TB2 that would allow them to work together. Sure maybe on some rendering programs that work through networking (like Compressor), but that's via Ethernet, not TB. It seems like many people are expecting and even planning on being able to do something that hasn't been announced, explained, or demonstrated. And TB2 is still only 20Mbps, which is nowhere near the speed you'd get having 2 CPUs on one board.

Since no pricing has actually been announced, you're making wild guesses here and seemingly trying to pass them off as facts by which others should base their buying decisions. I'm also sensing a very significant fear of change, something that shouldn't exist on RedUser for obvious reasons, but always does when one brings up the subject of Apple vs. other computer platforms as these conversations always wind up being religious arguments.

The fact is that no pricing has been announced, companion products have not been announced, the performance and availability of Thunderbolt 2 peripherals have not been tested or announced, the need for all of the things you now need in a slot based design and whether those same needs exist in Apple's new design has not been established, and the relevance of current technology in the face of new technology is questionable. Until these things are revealed, known, and tested there is no sensible basis for the kind of speculation you're doing.

It's not difficult to come up with some kind of estimate on the pricing. The prices of many of the components are known and you can add them up. This includes the CPU, Fire Pro GPUs, RAM, SSD storage, logic boards, etc. You can also consider Apple's current pricing for the older Mac Pro. Configure a Mac Pro with similar specs, add the difference for the Fire Pro GPUs and add or subtract for the difference in the cost of the CPUs, and you've got a pretty good idea of the cost. Apple isn't going to be afraid of increasing pricing. They did with the Retina MacBook Pro compared to the normal MacBook Pro and that worked out really well for them.

It's not an issue of change. It's practicality. I'm sure the new Mac Pro will work great for some people, but I expect there will be a lot of people that will find it to be inconvenient to have all those cables and expansion boxes connecting different components on a desk/tabletop/floor that they use to be able to have contained in one box.

 

[Alan McConnell]

That's why I built a Hackintosh. The minimum on these new Mac Pros is probably going to be around $4K for 8 cores, one GPU, 16GB RAM, and 1TB SSD. Add $ for 12 cores, dual GPU, and 64GB RAM and you're up at $8K, maybe more. Then add the cost of Thunderbolt expansion chassis. Many would probably want a HBA, Rocket, maybe a RAID controller. And if you want each of those to run at full speed (Rocket nd Rocket-X is at least x8, Atto HBA is x8, Atto RAID is x8), that's 3 expansion chassis, so add another ~$2,500. If you've already got a capture card and don't want to switch to a Thunderbolt version (i.e. UltraStudio 4K), then still add another expansion chassis for that. So you're looking at $10K-$11K for a maxed out Mac Pro system with everything you need.

For that money you can build a dual CPU 24-core Xeon E5 v2, dual Titan or 780, basically getting you double the power and you don't have to deal with a bunch of Thunderbolt cables, power cords, and different boxes and devices all over the place.

Not only that, you can upgrade your own custom computer in any way you want at any time you want. With Mac Pro you're locked into whatever storage and GPU Apple makes available, and they may not even allow upgrades of those. We already know the GPU is a standard form factor. I'd guess that the CPU is soldered in like the new iMacs and MacBook Pros. So if you want to upgrade you have to sell and buy a new whole new Mac Pro. For portability, this concept works fine for MacBook Pros. For a desktop, it doesn't make sense to me.

I've built a couple of maxed out Hackintosh's and I'll likely be buying a new Mac Pro. When I did the math, factoring in all of the additional time a Hackintosh requires over a Mac Pro and other inconveniences, it just doesn't add up for me. Your calculus may be different depending on how much free time you have, how much you enjoy building and maintaining these things, and how valuable you consider your time to be.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I've built a couple of maxed out Hackintosh's and I'll likely be probably be buying a new Mac Pro. When I did the math, factoring in all of the additional time a Hackintosh requires over a Mac Pro and other inconveniences, it just doesn't add up for me. Your calculus may be different depending on how much free time you have, how much you enjoy building and maintaining these things, and how valuable you consider your time to be.

Amen.

Also, regarding prices speculated in an earlier post - I think many will surprised at how low the price point is when announced Apple isn't going to charge $4K for 8-core model.

 

[Mike Halper]

Amen.

Also, regarding prices speculated in an earlier post - I think many will surprised at how low the price point is when announced Apple isn't going to charge $4K for 8-core model.

I think it will depend on the amount of RAM and if they offer a single GPU version. But based on the price of the 8-core CPU in the benchmark ($1,700), the cost of 16GB ECC RAM, the cost of 2 FirePro GPUs, 512GB SSD (what I'd expect someone to choose as a minimum for a workstation, though 1TB is a better idea IMO), plus all the other components involved, I don't think $4K should be a surprise. If they offer an 6 core model with 8GB RAM, single GPU, 128GB or 256GB SSD, sure $2,500-$3K may possible. But considering the way someone would actually configure it, I don't think $2,500 is a realistic cost estimate.

Hackintosh's aren't that difficult to set up. I thought they would be until I built my first one. I haven't had to deal with any maintenance with it at all and had no issues upgrading from 10.8.4 to 10.8.5 and no issues upgrading from 10.8.4 to Mavericks on another partition. The first time might be a little more troublesome, but once you know what to do and how to do it, and as long as you choose the right components, it's rather easy. But I understand not everyone has even that amount of time.

 

[Mike Halper]

If you build a Mac Pro on the Apple Store right now here's the closest you'll find to what that 8-core Mac Pro is.

One 3.33GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon processor
16GB (4x4GB)
512GB solid-state drive
ATI Radeon HD 5870 1GB

And that costs $4,174.00. Higher clock rate vs 2 more cores probably offsets each other cost-wise. Still need to add better graphics, plus additional graphics if dual GPU turns out to be standard. $4K is more realistic for that benchmarked model if it was 16GB RAM. But it's 64GB of RAM, so it's probably over $5K. How much do those 16GB ECC DIMMS cost?

 

[egon touste]

Apple should stick to what their good at, marketing!.. (everyone else should get better at ignoring it)..and making consumer gadgets that require monthly subscriptions to be useful, and of course ripping off musicians at large with peanut royalties just for kicks.. their computer glory days are long over IMO.. at least Microsoft write their own OS, not just modify one..and PCs can usually have their BIOS updated.. unlike my old imac that can't read my windows 7 installer DVD because it has crap firmware.. which they'll never update, because it was somewhat proprietory to start with and the sale is over..which makes it useless to me, in terms of versatility. If you think GPUs have a future, make sure you get some good ones that supports OpenCL AND CUDA (2.x and beyond).. and don't get locked into what the control freaks say you need.. I mean the money grabbers..sorry, I mean Apple ..THEY DONT LOVE YOU! Hackintosh is the way forward.. I shall run REDUNDEAD on my old imac.. so it is useful still barely.. rant over. just spent two days trying to upgrade my bootcamp.. what a waste of time. Apple are boring frankly

 

[M Most]

Apple should stick to what their good at, marketing!.. ...ripping off musicians... computer glory days are long over ... Microsoft write their own OS, not just modify one.....my old imac that can't read my windows 7 installer DVD because it has crap firmware.. ... don't get locked into what the control freaks say you need.. I mean the money grabbers..sorry, I mean Apple ..THEY DONT LOVE YOU!

Well, I did say that this always turns into a religious argument. Seems I probably should have said "ridiculous religious argument....".

As for costs, it's not realistic to base predictions of pricing of new devices on that of old devices, particularly when you're only talking about individual components. You're ignoring the cost of manufacture, case, number of separate pieces (such as disk drives, peripheral connectors, SATA bus, video, numerous fans, etc., etc.) and numerous other things that impact the overall pricing of a product. The new design eliminates a number of things I just mentioned, takes a rather expensive metal case and replaces it with something that is likely considerably less costly in spite of its new design, minimizes the number of different connectors that are internally supported, reduces the number of fans to one, and is going to be built at a time when memory is cheaper than it has been for quite some time. Even the video is being replaced by a less dedicated monitor transport (Thunderbolt). And I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that Apple is getting pricing from Intel that others would likely envy. I'm not going to make any prediction on what the pricing will be on these machines, but Apple knows quite well what the market will bear and is not about to shoot themselves in the foot with a new flagship product.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm not going to make any prediction on what the pricing will be on these machines, but Apple knows quite well what the market will bear and is not about to shoot themselves in the foot with a new flagship product.

Bingo.

Unlike Mike - I'll go ahead and make a prediction.

Lineup starts at $1,999.00

 

[Mike Halper]

Well, I did say that this always turns into a religious argument. Seems I probably should have said "ridiculous religious argument....".

As for costs, it's not realistic to base predictions of pricing of new devices on that of old devices, particularly when you're only talking about individual components. You're ignoring the cost of manufacture, case, number of separate pieces (such as disk drives, peripheral connectors, SATA bus, video, numerous fans, etc., etc.) and numerous other things that impact the overall pricing of a product. The new design eliminates a number of things I just mentioned, takes a rather expensive metal case and replaces it with something that is likely considerably less costly in spite of its new design, minimizes the number of different connectors that are internally supported, reduces the number of fans to one, and is going to be built at a time when memory is cheaper than it has been for quite some time. Even the video is being replaced by a less dedicated monitor transport (Thunderbolt). And I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that Apple is getting pricing from Intel that others would likely envy. I'm not going to make any prediction on what the pricing will be on these machines, but Apple knows quite well what the market will bear and is not about to shoot themselves in the foot with a new flagship product.

Sure there's things that are eliminated in the new Mac Pro, but there's also things added, like controllers for 6 Thunderbolt 2 ports, the TB2 ports themselves, controllers for USB3 ports, the USB3 ports themselves, an HDMI port, 2 Ethernet ports, etc. that are not in the old Mac Pros. Those new TB2 and USB3 controllers and ports are more expensive than the old ones because they are newer, and it just adds to or compensates for the difference in the price of the components that are different.

You're right, you need to take into consideration the cost of manufacturing, R&D, advertising, etc., which just adds to the price. But let's offset that with the cost of those items in the old Mac Pro since they both have those and if anything the new one would have a higher cost of those given that it's newer (newer manufacturing always costs more than older manufacturing) and Apple hasn't really been doing marketing for the old Mac Pro whereas they've released a commercial spot for the new Mac Pro and placed it in movie theaters.

Normal fans aren't expensive... in fact they're pretty cheap. Yet this new custom fan design I'm sure will have a manufacturing cost higher than the cost of the typical computer case fans in the old Mac Pro... so let's just say that's even or close to it since fans are cheap.

The memory isn't that cheap. We're talking ECC buffered DDR3 1866MHz. For good quality 64GB of RAM you're easily looking at $1,000 right there, and that's if you buy 3rd party RAM instead of from Apple (who over-charges for RAM). It's faster, more expensive RAM than in the old Mac Pro.

I'm sure Apple is getting lower pricing from Intel on the old Xeon CPUs as well. There's no reason to think or believe that Apple is getting a better rate on the new CPUs than the old ones. It's possible that Apple is getting the CPUs before other manufacturers and is paying a premium for that exclusivity period.

 

[Mike Halper]

Bingo.

Unlike Mike - I'll go ahead and make a prediction.

Lineup starts at $1,999.00

Where are you getting that figure? That's just throwing out a hopeful number. I'm at least making an educated analysis of the cost of components and cost of current available products. If Apple prices it too low then no one will buy iMacs or Mac Minis. A maxed out Mac Mini is $2,000. Why would Apple offer a far superior computer for the same price? Same goes for the iMac. If the new Mac Pro is only $2,000 or $2,500, why would anyone buy an iMac when you can get a superior Mac Pro and Thunderbolt Display for the same price as a not-even-maxed-out iMac. They'll price it so as to not cannibalize other products.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Where are you getting that figure? I'm at least making an educated analysis of the cost of components and cost of current available products. That's just throwing out a hopeful number. If Apple prices it too low then no one will buy iMacs or Mac Minis. A maxed out Mac Mini is $1,500. Why would Apple offer a far superior computer for only $500 more? They'll price it so as to not cannibalize other products.

I said i think the lineup will START at $1999 - I did not say what it would be "maxed out".

Current iMac lineup starts at $1,299.
Current Mac-Mini lineup starts at $599
Current MacPro lineup starts at $2,499

 

[D Anderson]

Where are you getting that figure? I'm at least making an educated analysis of the cost of components and cost of current available products. That's just throwing out a hopeful number. If Apple prices it too low then no one will buy iMacs or Mac Minis. A maxed out Mac Mini is $1,500. Why would Apple offer a far superior computer for only $500 more? Same goes for the iMac. If the new Mac Pro is only $2,500, why would anyone buy an iMac when you can get a superior Mac Pro and Thunderbolt Display for the same price as a not-even-maxed-out iMac. They'll price it so as to not cannibalize other products.

I think Mike is correct - a current MAC PRO of similar spec, as he says, is over 4K. I`d like it not to be the case but his "guess" on the new similarly powered Mac Pro trash can is likely accurate.