Mac to PC Switchers - Another Vender to Consider

[Tom Daigon]

My research for alternatives to my Mac Pro continues. Puget Systems has a lot going for it. Very impressive company and PC. And cheaper then HP & Box.

http://www.pugetsystems.com/nav/genesis/II/specs.php


Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
8 core
10.7.4
Nvidia Quadro 4000
24 gigs ram
Maxx Digital / Areca 8tb. raid
Kona 3

 

[Rob Ruffo]

It's spelled vendor, not vender.

To get the same power as a 2012 12 core Mac Pro you will spend about as much or more on a PC, and some of that power will be spent on the horrible bloatware which is the Windows operating system and its bi-daily updates. It will also be less stable, as PC RAM is not self-correcting. Then there is the disc fragmentation issue, which you don't get on Mac... I could go on.

The only reason there have not been new Mac Pros as of late is because there really is has not been much new/better in terms of new processors.

 

[Tom Daigon]

It's spelled vendor, not vender.

To get the same power as a 2012 12 core Mac Pro you will spend about as much or more on a PC, and some of that power will be spent on the horrible bloatware which is the Windows operating system and its bi-daily updates. It will also be less stable, as PC RAM is not self-correcting. Then there is the disc fragmentation issue, which you don't get on Mac... I could go on.

The only reason there have not been new Mac Pros as of late is because there really is has not been much new/better in terms of new processors.

Rob, please feel free to hold your breath waiting for a Mac Pro from crApple ( thats spelled Apple with a c-r in front) while I move on to a system that will enhance CS6 performance GREATLY over my current Mac Pro 2008 model. Im not interested in getting involved in your Mac fanboy arguefest. Use what you want, I really dont care.

 

[Stefan Scherperel]

It's spelled vendor, not vender.

To get the same power as a 2012 12 core Mac Pro you will spend about as much or more on a PC, and some of that power will be spent on the horrible bloatware which is the Windows operating system and its bi-daily updates. It will also be less stable, as PC RAM is not self-correcting. Then there is the disc fragmentation issue, which you don't get on Mac... I could go on.

The only reason there have not been new Mac Pros as of late is because there really is has not been much new/better in terms of new processors.

Usually I won't get into things like this, but to see someone post a question, and then get flamed not only on his spelling but on the entire subject of his post is just wrong.
To begin with, in the English language, while Vendor is more commonly used, Vender is also acceptable spelling. Why this was even brought up in the first place is just bad form.
Also Rob, while your opinion is much appreciated, despite negativity being thrown up all over your post, it is hardly fact.
So lets go back to Tom's original question and work from there. If you want to start a Mac vs PC debate, there are lots of forums all over the "internets" for you to choose from.

To Tom
For me personally I prefer to build my own systems, but Puget systems looks very well designed, although some of their prices for upgrades are a little steep.

 

[Tom Daigon]

Hi Stefan, thanks for the moral support My skills are in editing and motion graphics so its wise for me to allow others with skills in computer building to do what they do best. Ive researched lots of folks (HP, Boxx, ADK, Pro Maxx) and I like that Puget listens to my unique needs as an editor and designs a system with that in mind. Unfortunately the system and components I want tend to be costly at all the places I have checked out. Puget happens to be the lowest so far.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Good stuff Tom.

I saw the Promax Systems One PC out at NAB and was super impressed with it as well.

Best,

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, please feel free to hold your breath waiting for a Mac Pro from crApple ( thats spelled Apple with a c-r in front) while I move on to a system that will enhance CS6 performance GREATLY over my current Mac Pro 2008 model. Im not interested in getting involved in your Mac fanboy arguefest. Use what you want, I really dont care.

Well, you could get a 2010 model with 12 cores. That would be way faster than a 2008 model and would cost you, as mentioned, the same as a PC with the same capabilities, but would run on a low overhead operating system. Do what you want, but I do post production at a very high end, as do many Mac Pro users - maybe we know something. I have PCs here as well.

 

[Milan Spasic]

To me, using a Mac was never about the hardware, it was about NOT having to use Windows.

Looking at the hardware alone and ignoring the OS is like comparing cameras and not mentioning that one shoots RAW and other only JPEG.
So "better performance" is a relative term in this case.
The idea of Hackintosh appeals to me but switching to Windows to improve performance doesn't really.
Good luck.

Cheers,

Milan

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Usually I won't get into things like this, but to see someone post a question, and then get flamed not only on his spelling but on the entire subject of his post is just wrong.
To begin with, in the English language, while Vendor is more commonly used, Vender is also acceptable spelling. Why this was even brought up in the first place is just bad form.
Also Rob, while your opinion is much appreciated, despite negativity being thrown up all over your post, it is hardly fact.
So lets go back to Tom's original question and work from there. If you want to start a Mac vs PC debate, there are lots of forums all over the "internets" for you to choose from.

To Tom
For me personally I prefer to build my own systems, but Puget systems looks very well designed, although some of their prices for upgrades are a little steep.

Vender is not "acceptable spelling" just because many who do not know how to spell spell it that way. "Er" and "or" have different semantic inferences. To switch them is to lower the usefulness of the written word.

Other than that I was not flaming him. His post suggested that a vast migration from Mac for pro use was necessary. That is not (yet) advisable unless Mac does not release new towers based on Sandy Bridge. We have yet to see whether or not they will. Since their last release, other than the (very) recent Sandy Bridge, Moore's Law has proven untrue, mainly because most consumers already have computers more than fast enough for their needs, so there is not the gigantic financial incentive for progress there was when Microsoft Word was too slow for comfort on your average desktop. Mac depends on Intel to develop new and faster things, and lately they have not.

 

[Stefan Scherperel]

Vender is not "acceptable spelling" just because many who do not know how to spell spell it that way. "Er" and "or" have different semantic inferences. To switch them is to lower the usefulness of the written word.

Other than that I was not flaming him. His post suggested that a vast migration from Mac for pro use was necessary. That is not (yet) advisable unless Mac does not release new towers based on Sandy Bridge. We have yet to see whether or not they will. Since their last release, other than the (very) recent Sandy Bridge, Moore's Law has proven untrue, mainly because most consumers already have computers more than fast enough for their needs, so there is not the gigantic financial incentive for progress there was when Microsoft Word was too slow for comfort on your average desktop. Mac depends on Intel to develop new and faster things, and lately they have not.

While it might be that way in Canada, Vender and Vendor is used in the English language in the United States. Vendor deriving from the Anglo-French, and Vender deriving from Latin. This forum is worldwide, and there will be different spellings for words all over the world, depending on the local customs. Don't even get me started on "color" and "colour".

"Other than that I was not flaming him. "

There is no reason to flame anybody for any reason at all, if you are having a bad day, a forum about cameras is not really a great place to take out your anger.

I think a lot of people are up in the air about the current Apple situation, whether waiting for FCP X updates or if the mac Pro will actually be continued. Some people aren't satisfied with just waiting and seeing, and want to protect themselves for the future.
Tom was simply referring to the several people on this forum that have been talking about switching from Mac to PC. No where did I see him imply that a revolution was happening, therefore a harsh retort such as the one you gave was a bit out of line.

 

[Gabor D.]

Hi All,

I'm currently a Macbook Pro 15 (late 2008) user. This is my first mac after several years of PC. I fall in love with the Apple feeling and stable and usable system. Until this point I directed stuff, but as it turns out in a few weeks time I need to cut my stuff too. I'm really happy about this, and my first intention was to buy an Apple system for my editing purposes. I started to discover the subject and had to realize that Apple is no longer supplementing the pro users. Not just with its software, but nor with its hardware. At the same time I read a lot about the new Adobe CS6 package. First it was a strange idea to go back to Windows system, but I'm getting to like it more and more. Almost 15 years ago Premiere Pro (maybe 1.5) was my first ever encounter with an editing program. So it seems I'm heading back to the roots now... However the question will be the hardware... I didn't have much luck with custom built PCs in terms of reliability, so I try not to go that route. However I found the HP Z workstations..... Woww.... Those are some nice machines... Actually during my research I have not read any kind of bad stuff abut them, only if the prices are little bit high. But hey, quality must be paid for...
So to cut my long text: I'm going with an HP Z workstation and Adobe CS6.

Here's a system I'm considering:
HP Z 620 or 420 with Intel Xeon e5-1620 3,6ghz, 24GB RAM
nVidia Quadro 4000
2 HP ZR2240 21,5" Monitors
G-Speed Q 8Tb in Raid 5 (I will work on this HDD, and the finished stuff will be saved to other external HDDs).
Adobe CS6 Production Premium

So, what you think about it? The price difference between the 420 and 620 systems are not that huge, but I'm hesitating right now which one to choose. Do I really need the 620, or the 420 will be enough? I have more options for the future if I go with the z620.... I'm calculating now, but this is the system so far... I could save a little money if I would go with the Quadro 2000 instead of the 4000, but as the reason for this system is to be able to cut effectively it would not make sense to save money on one of the most important factor of a system like this, so I'll probably go with the 4000. However, I'm not sure about the G-Speed Q 8tb. Maybe I could go with the 4tb. That's plenty enough storage too.

BTW I'm not a native english speaker, so forgive me my mistakes...

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Well, you could get a 2010 model with 12 cores. That would be way faster than a 2008 model and would cost you, as mentioned, the same as a PC with the same capabilities, but would run on a low overhead operating system. Do what you want, but I do post production at a very high end, as do many Mac Pro users - maybe we know something. I have PCs here as well.

And some very high end post production work also gets done on windows using Softimage, Nuke, Scratch etc... There was a time where Apple had a much better OS... .but today, honestly, it makes very little difference what OS you use as win7 and OSX are so similar in performance and reliability. This whole platform war is simply ridiculous at this point and should not even be an issue anymore...you really can't go wrong with either OS.... The thing I will give the apple OS is that it's a still more secure and less prone to viruses.

 

[Tom Daigon]

Hi All,

I'm currently a Macbook Pro 15 (late 2008) user. This is my first mac after several years of PC. I fall in love with the Apple feeling and stable and usable system. Until this point I directed stuff, but as it turns out in a few weeks time I need to cut my stuff too. I'm really happy about this, and my first intention was to buy an Apple system for my editing purposes. I started to discover the subject and had to realize that Apple is no longer supplementing the pro users. Not just with its software, but nor with its hardware. At the same time I read a lot about the new Adobe CS6 package. First it was a strange idea to go back to Windows system, but I'm getting to like it more and more. Almost 15 years ago Premiere Pro (maybe 1.5) was my first ever encounter with an editing program. So it seems I'm heading back to the roots now... However the question will be the hardware... I didn't have much luck with custom built PCs in terms of reliability, so I try not to go that route. However I found the HP Z workstations..... Woww.... Those are some nice machines... Actually during my research I have not read any kind of bad stuff abut them, only if the prices are little bit high. But hey, quality must be paid for...
So to cut my long text: I'm going with an HP Z workstation and Adobe CS6.

Here's a system I'm considering:
HP Z 620 or 420 with Intel Xeon e5-1620 3,6ghz, 24GB RAM
nVidia Quadro 4000
2 HP ZR2240 21,5" Monitors
G-Speed Q 8Tb in Raid 5 (I will work on this HDD, and the finished stuff will be saved to other external HDDs).
Adobe CS6 Production Premium

So, what you think about it? The price difference between the 420 and 620 systems are not that huge, but I'm hesitating right now which one to choose. Do I really need the 620, or the 420 will be enough? I have more options for the future if I go with the z620.... I'm calculating now, but this is the system so far... I could save a little money if I would go with the Quadro 2000 instead of the 4000, but as the reason for this system is to be able to cut effectively it would not make sense to save money on one of the most important factor of a system like this, so I'll probably go with the 4000. However, I'm not sure about the G-Speed Q 8tb. Maybe I could go with the 4tb. That's plenty enough storage too.

BTW I'm not a native english speaker, so forgive me my mistakes...

Gabor, PrP likes as much power as possible. Especially for Red / Epic. I strongly suggest getting the fastest processors, the most ram and the Quadro 4000 to allow yourself to edit any codec or format that you need to. And make sure you raid is capable of very fast speeds (especially for Red or Epic).

 

[Gabor D.]

Gabor, PrP likes as much power as possible. Especially for Red / Epic. I strongly suggest getting the fastest processors, the most ram and the Quadro 4000 to allow yourself to edit any codec or format that you need to. And make sure you raid is capable of very fast speeds (especially for Red or Epic).

Hi Tom,
Actually the system I described really pushes my budget to its edges, so that's the best system I can get in my country... So from that there's only one way... which is down

I don't know how much Red footage I have to edit, but according to the preliminary plans I think my main are will be DSLR type footage (from D800 and 5D mark iii). The company I work for wants to acquire a camera, so not rent it but have it, and from that point I'll edit that footage. It's not yet decided, maybe we buy a D800, but to tell you the truth I'm really waiting for the Blackmagic Cinema Camera to be realized and reviewed because that would be the best choice in my opinion.

What you think about the G-Speed Q Raid 5 solutions?

 

[Tom Daigon]

Hi Tom,
Actually the system I described really pushes my budget to its edges, so that's the best system I can get in my country... So from that there's only one way... which is down

I don't know how much Red footage I have to edit, but according to the preliminary plans I think my main are will be DSLR type footage (from D800 and 5D mark iii). The company I work for wants to acquire a camera, so not rent it but have it, and from that point I'll edit that footage. It's not yet decided, maybe we buy a D800, but to tell you the truth I'm really waiting for the Blackmagic Cinema Camera to be realized and reviewed because that would be the best choice in my opinion.

What you think about the G-Speed Q Raid 5 solutions?

Well then if thats your limit, thats all you can do. A raid 5 8TB array sounds good, Ive just never used the product. Google is your friend DSLR footage can be as challenging to systems as Red for different reasons. The highly compressed codec makes demands on the CPU / GPU.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

The only reason there have not been new Mac Pros as of late is because there really is has not been much new/better in terms of new processors.

Except for the new Sandy Bridge processors which are twice as fast and dozens of other faster, more efficient cpus that have come out in the past 2+ years since the cpu the top end mac pro uses came out...

It's one thing if current Mac Pro's are fast enough for you and you dont mind paying a premium for 2 year old hardware, but if you are saying that Apple has it's customers best interests in mind when it decides not to update its workstations for 2 years, you may be suffering from fanboyism. Hopefully mac pro's get the new E5 CPUs so they can keep up.

 

[Gabor D.]

Well then if thats your limit, thats all you can do. A raid 5 8TB array sounds good, Ive just never used the product. Google is your friend DSLR footage can be as challenging to systems as Red for different reasons. The highly compressed codec makes demands on the CPU / GPU.

Could you advise me on the processor? Actually it's a totally unknown land to me. I tried to explore it by visiting the Intel website, but as it turns out there are different families of Xeon processors and I try to figure out by the product numbering which one is better.... In case of E5 and E3 its obvious that E5 is the better. But what about the 5000 series vs. E5 series? There are dozens of options on both sides costing approximately the same money but with totally different specifications. So, could you simplify it for me what should I look for? I'm lost in the world of cores, Ghz-s, and MBs.... On the german HP Shop site I basically found these 2 types listed with the Z620 and Z420 workstations:
Intel Xeon e5-1620 3.6 Ghz, 10Mb, 4 core
Intel Xeon e5-2620 2 Ghz, 15Mb, 6 core
Intel Xeon e5-1650 3.2 Ghz, 12Mb, 6 core

Some of them have more cores with less Ghz-s, different Mbytes.... I don't know which one I need...

In case of GPU its easier question because I can decide between the different Quadro cards based on the product numbering and prices. So I choose the best I can afford which is the nVidia Quadro 4000. So that's the roof. Should I consider the cheaper Quadro 2000? I will mainly use Premiere CS6, editing and color correcting, Lightroom and in the possible future maybe DaVinci Resolve.

BTW, I want a separate boot drive internally, and every other drive should be external. Should this boot drive be a fast 10 or 15k rpm HDD or an SSD? I don't know why, but for intensive use a Velociraptor seems to be more reliable and massive for me....

BTW2: What would you advise: choose the "cheaper" z420 system with better processor, or a z620 system with a slightly cheaper processor? The z620 case feels more robust, better build and better expendable, with more power in the PSU, and other tiny details...

 

[Gabor D.]

Question 2:
Would in internal RAID 5 solution be better than the G-Speed Q external solution? I think in that case I would need a Raid controller also....

In case of the external G-Speed Q Raid 5 should I connect it with esata or Fireware?

The Promise Pegasus Thunderbolt cost more, but have thunderbolt. However I don't think the HP workstation can have Thunderbolt or not...

 

[Bruce Ingram]

Tom, thanks for the info on Puget, I hadn't come across them before. While I like to generally build my own PC rigs, having a good, turnkey resource is always great.

 

[Tom Daigon]

Tom, thanks for the info on Puget, I hadn't come across them before. While I like to generally build my own PC rigs, having a good, turnkey resource is always great.

Gabor, my choice is for the most cores and the fastest processor (actually 2). 2687W is very expensive but CS6 really thrives on fast processors, lots of ram, a powerful GPU and a fast raid array. I cant really tell you what to get with your budget. Those are the tenets I follow when buying a system for my needs. If you dont edit Red or Epic you could get by with a Sandy Bridge E system for half the cost. Please consult a turnkey vender to help you configure your system. Puget or ADK or Videoguys are a good place to start.

Bruce, glad to be of help. I think Puget Systems are a hidden gem that not to many video folks know about.