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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Luma Tech Illuminas vs. the new Cooke Panchros...a review

Ok, so anyway...

Paul! How are those samples coming? lol

Very excited and grateful. I check this thread more than any other recently, including RECON
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Ryan was being pretty aggressive, but he's right.

There is some very damn solid evidence in front of you and a lot of very distinguished folks are putting their reputations on the line with this.

I'll add my voice to the list ... The Cooke Panchros are a better match for the S4 and S5 lenses, aside from stops, than anything else. They match the S4 primes better than the Cooke S4 CXX 15-40 t/2 zoom.

I think they match the S4 set better than two sets of Red Pro Primes or Zeiss Compact Primes will match each other.

Now, that's probably more "blah blah blah" to you.

Here is what I want you to consider, if this evidence isn't sufficient to convince you, then until you do the tests yourself and can draw your own conclusions nothing will.

Until then, I think what you should probably say is, "The Cooke Panchros are reputed to be a great match for the Cooke S4 & S5 sets. There are tests that come to that conclusion, but I need to do my own tests to be convinced."

No one can fault you for that, and its far less dismissive of so many carefully considered positions by a ton of industry pros.
Click to expand...

Agreed, the Panchros are probably the closest match to S4/S5's. How close is what I'd like to see. At some point, I will shoot some tests with flesh and bone. I've access to the Panchros and am working on getting some S4's donated. The reason for my posts is I was hoping there were some decent tests or 1st hand experiences. I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else but after hearing so much about being them indistinguishable from S4/5, I think it's only acceptable to inquire about footage. And while I appreciate Ryan's tests and there is some great info in them, I was hoping someone had footage that discerns what many consider important criterion that comprises a lenses look (Fleshtone, Depth, Bokeh, Focus roll off, etc). I'll get on these tests within the month.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Bless your heart.

You say, "not convinced yet"... but what is that based off of?

Since you have done zero tests of your own, you are apparently 'not convinced' by the following:

1) The opinions of several cinematographers here on RedUser.net who have extensive experience with Cooke lens sets.
2) The company itself. One of the top cinema lens manufacturers in the world, who advertises as such and stakes its reputation on its products.
3) The controlled A/B test I performed myself and Timur kindly posted in your other thread.
4) As an extension, Robert Richardson, ASC, who used Cooke 5/i's, Cooke S4's and Cooke Panchro/i's on Hugo Cabret.
4.1) Darius Khondji, ASC used Cooke 5/i, S4/i, and Panchro/i lenses to shoot Midnight in Paris
5) As an extension, Jon Fauer, ASC, who reported that the lenses match within his FDT write up almost a year ago.
6) How about based on the fact there is not a single person who has tested the lenses and has said they don't match near perfectly?


I apologize if I seem to be a bit aggressive, but as a person who has done the A/B test, and as a person who purchased a set, I can tell you that the Panchro/i lens set is an amazing set of lenses which are relatively new to the scene and unknown. So just as these lenses are getting their legs and becoming well liked, it is bothersome to me for someone who has not done any testing, to spread doubts about their quality on a public forum. I don't know if you are intentionally trying to question the integrity of the Panchro/i lens set, but your pessimism influences other people's opinions who have not yet tested the lens set.

So why are you not giving Cooke the benefit of the doubt? If Zeiss came out with a new lens set and said it was the same design, glass, coatings and quality of MP's, I'd believe them until proven untrue.

What do you want? You asked for an A/B comparison, and Timur kindly directed you to one. One I took great effort and care to create. Now you need a test with people in it?! Why? Do you think the color reproduction and contrast would match between Panchro/i's and S4/i's on all the still life objects but not on people?

I would like to help you find the answers you seek, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why you must cast so much doubt.

What do you need? What can I do to help you?

If you don't believe, go find a set of S4's and Panchro/i's and do the test. I believe Timur offered up his set of Panchro/i's. If what you find is not to your satisfaction, by all means report back to us here. Until then, your best bet is to believe those who have. Sorry if all the evidence available on the interwebs isn't enough for you to give the benefit of the doubt. If you can't trust Cooke, the company, or other cinematographers tests and conclusions, you best just do the test yourself.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Don't worry, you're not being too aggressive, I'm grateful for these leads. I'm sure there'll be some pleasant surprises. Sorry if you find my "unconvinced" as pessimism. I think my wording could have been a bit more tactful. My apologies. In the meantime, I'll follow up with Timur and do some A/B. I got a feature coming up in a month's time and we'll probably be using S4's so I need to know soon if Panchros will make a good sub for B camera.
 
I've been lurking in this thread for a while now, but as I didn't have anything to add I've kept quiet. A couple points that are probably worth mentioning, that I didn't see anyone else make note of so far-

The price for Cooke Panchro/i, are going up on October 1, not to mention Cooke 5/i Lenses are going up September 1!

Here's a quote of the most salient point from the email to Cooke dealers:

"Price increases will take effect on all orders of Cooke PANCHRO /i lenses placed after September 30th, 2011 and on all orders of Cooke 5/i lenses placed after August 31, 2011.

The new price lists will be available for Cooke 5/i lenses in late August and for Cooke PANCHRO /i lenses in late September. "

It's a popular moment to be purchasing lenses. Hot Rod Cameras is a dealer for Cooke, Zeiss and Angenieux lenses, and I can tell you that there are some fairly significant lead times from the factory for delivery at the moment. If you are thinking of purchasing anything from these companies for a project, you should check with your dealer in advance.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
4) As an extension, Robert Richardson, ASC, who used Cooke 5/i's, Cooke S4's and Cooke Panchro/i's on Hugo Cabret.
4.1) Darius Khondji, ASC used Cooke 5/i, S4/i, and Panchro/i lenses to shoot Midnight in Paris
Click to expand...

Good points Ryan. I've also heard that that the Panchro/i lenses were used extensively on the Cabret, and that the size, weight and matching were all loved by the camera crew.

Additionally, I just saw Midnight in Paris and (not surprisingly) it looks fantastic. There must be more than a few others who saw it recently as it's now Woody's highest grossing movie http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-shocker-midnight-paris-204720

I spoke to a client that I sold a set of Panchro/i lenses to last year, and he told me that since Midnight was released he's been able to command the same rates for Panchro/i lenses as his Ultra Primes ($550/day)!

My guess is that the daily rental rate for Panchro/i lenses won't be falling anytime soon with the price increase due to take effect in the next 30-days.
 
Paaaaaaauuulll!? Your kiiiiiiillllinggggg meeeeeee!

lol, jk.

But really, any feedback?

I have my first real Red One shoot coming up. Red One, M Sensor, Super Speeds. Should be fun and all, though I am really waiting till I can secure my own Epic and (probably) illuminas. So for now, I live vicariously through you!

Maybe Paul is having so much fun with these new lenses that he can't stop! He is now a shooting zombie, shooting until time ends.

Like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIyVABf1rtk
 
If you'd like another supporting endorsement, this is from Gregor Tavenner, 1st AC to Robert Richardson, ASC, on Martin Scorsese's Hugo Cabret:

"We heard about the 5/i lenses, so we decided to take a look at them at Clairmont Camera. They were absolutely gorgeous; they had a beautiful feeling. We ended up taking three sets together with S4/i and Panchros, and what we saw was incredible consistency."
Click to expand...
 
Paul, I wonder if when you get to your samples, write up, whatever - should you start a new thread? this is less of a cooke vs illumina thread, and more two separate discussions running in tandem. Just a thought. could link here to your new thread.
 
the illumina footage takes a really long time to upload... I thought the lenses were fast :)

... just kidding but were all dying to see some sample footage and product shots!
 
LOL! Nice one, Richard.

I am always talking about "fast lenses" to my wife and she looks at me like I am crazy.
 
+1 for Paul!

Anyone know of a rental house that might have the new versions of the Illuminas for rent in the U.S.? I'd like to bring a set in for a shoot...

Alex
 
Paul!!!!

I can't imagine you've done nothing with these lenses!!!!!

:) :) :)

Antoine
 
maybe his updates were "subject to change" lol.
 
Sorry guys. The day after my lenses arrived I got slammed by two features to color correct on crazy schedules, so I have been round the clock for three weeks. Just about out of the woods. So this week I'll take some time off and shoot. Again, sorry for the delay, I know there is a lot of interest in these lenses.
 
Paul, No worries! Its the best problem to have, too much work. Good for you!
 
Paul Nordin said:
OK, so now I’ve had a chance to review the footage I shot. It was all shot on an Epic-M 5k with RC 6:1. First let me qualify this information by being very up front in that I am not a lens tech. I’m a DP. Normally when I’m evaluating a lens or set of lenses, I go and shoot something and see how it performed in my grading suite (which is currently Resolve). For many logistical reasons, I’ve not been able to do that in this case. I’d also like to give big thanks to Eric and his team at IndieRentals in LA who graciously allowed me to hold up in their facility and use their projector and Epic-M.

I won’t go too much in detail on the Cooke Panchros with this review because they are –very- well understood lenses. The Illuminas on the other hand are new on the scene, so trying to figure out where they fit is really what I was trying to do.

View attachment 14655

View attachment 14656

Preliminary view:
Cooke Panchros (18, 25, 32, 50, 75, 100): They are just like S4s, but are limited to t2.8, and are smaller than the S4s. The build quality is off the charts awesome. They are like jewels. The Iris and Focus rings both have identical mechanical feel, which was extremely smooth and required a light touch. Focusing is internal…no lens extension occurs. Each lens is a different length, but with the exception of the 18mm all have the same diameter at the end of the lens.

Luma Tech Illuminas (18, 25, 35, 50, 85): These lenses remind me a lot of superspeeds in size/weight although they are a bit bigger. They are also a bit smaller and lighter than the Cooke Panchros. All Illuminas have the same diameter at the end. General build quality seemed quite good. They are a bit more boxy in style than the Panchros. They were made of a solid feeling metal, which appears from the outside to be fine at taking normal set abuse. Marks were clear and easy to see. 9-bladed Iris which gave a nice bokeh. Focusing is internal, so like the Panchros, no lens extension happens when focusing. Focus and Iris rings are in opposite sides of the lens from the Panchros (and most other lenses I’m used to). That doesn’t seem to be a real problem but is one thing that you have to get used to if quickly grabbing the lens to adjust focus. The mechanics of the iris and focus ring were stiffer than the Panchros but still they had a smooth and consistent feel. With the Panchros I could make a minor focus adjustment with the light touch of a finger. The Illumina focus and iris rings were not hard to turn, but a firmer hand was needed, which in my mind makes the need for a FF to pull without moving the camera more necessary in some situations.

From the outside comparing the two is like comparing Jarred’s International Scout (when it was new) to a BMW. Both get the job done and seem solidly built, the Cookes do it with a bit more panache than the Illumina’s utilitarian nothing-but-business approach. I’m not an expert, but it seems like the Illumina’s bodies are stamped metal, where the Cooke’s are machined.

On the Projector:
Joe of IndieRentals and I went into their back room and put the Illuminas up on the projector. It was very interesting to see how consistent the differences were on the projector between the two sets (Panchros and Illuminas) across all lenses.

Barrel distortion was very well contained on the Panchros, and less so on the Illuminas. You can see that for yourself on the charts I shot. Unfortunately, I was not vertically centered on the charts so when you view them bear that in mind. The Panchros held edge sharpness better than the Illuminas which tended to fall off somewhat. Same with illumination. Both suffered mild fall-off, with the Panchros doing a bit better. Same with CA. This was very consistent. Of the Illuminas the 50 was the real standout followed by the 35.

All-in-all, on the bench, the Panchros were optically superior. That said, the Illuminas held focus well, and they still performed admirably.

All lenses tested provided full coverage of the Red Epic 5k sensor.

On the Camera:
I’ve included links to full-res TIF images for all the lenses I looked at (not the Panchro 85). Shooting the chart at T2.8 and a split with the chart and a background tree at infinity at t.8.

Flaring was much more prevenient on the Illuminas. The Cookes were amazingly resistant to flaring. And when they did the flares were nice. The Illuminas had at times a strange heart shape to the flares, and also were more prone to milking out when hit by side-light.

I’ve also included links to h.264 clips showing various things (chart, distortion, breathing, and soft/hard flaring for each lens. Here are the links:
TIF Images (full-res) chart
Illumina_18mm_t2.8.tif
Illumina_18mm_t8.tif
Illumina_25mm_t2.8.tif
Illumina_25mm_t8.tif
Illumina_35mm_t2.8.tif
Illumina_35mm_t8.tif
Illumina_50mm_t2.8.tif
Illumina_50mm_t8.tif
Illumina_85mm_t2.8.tif

Cooke_18mm_t2.8.tif
Cooke_18mm_t8.tif
Cooke_25mm_t2.8.tif
Cooke_32mm_t2.8.tif
Cooke_32mm_t8.tif
Cooke_50mm_t2.8.tif
Cooke_50mm_t8.tif
Cooke_100mm_t2.8.tif

35mm Illumina at 3 different t-stops
Illumina_35_t1.3-chart.tif
Illumina_35_t2.8-chart.tif
Illumina_35_t5.6-chart.tif

h.264 Quicktimes (HD: 200-275mb)
Illumina_35mm_flare_examples.mov
Illumina_18mm.mov
Illumina_25mm.mov
Illumina_35mm.mov
Illumina_50mm.mov
Illumina_85mm.mov

Cooke_18mm.mov
Cooke_25mm.mov
Cooke_32mm.mov
Cooke_50mm.mov
Cooke_100mm.mov
Click to expand...

The link is out of work.I can't download the TIFF file.
 
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