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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

LTO-3 still the way to go?

I just got this in also after saying that I wanted to use the RocketRAID card to hook up the tape drive:

"Hi Matthew,
Thanks for the details--you absolutely should use LE, it is perfect for your environment and needs. We like the Rocket RAID card a lot--so you're good there too. We have our BETA running right now for BRU PE (which might also be a fit). Here's a quick link on the PE product (lots of music session stuff, but video is part of the release and will be updated in the marketing), and if you want to join the BETA, let me know! http://www.tolisgroup.com/products/macosx/pe/
Best,
Paige"

I also just played around with BRU LE and it seems pretty good. Easy to use and does exactly what I need. I think this with the SAS drive will work just fine for me.

Matthew
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
In fact, most OSX backup software just plain sucks.. Freebie products on Windows are typically lightyears ahead of what people pay money for on the Mac. Sad, but true.
If you want a commercial product, take a look at BRU, BakBone and Atempo.
Click to expand...

It must be mentioned that the high end software (Atempo TimeNavigator and BakBone) is very good. The price, though, is completely Enterprise and seriously outrageous as a result.

But for everything else, I completely agree with your comments. For a typical producer/editor there's really nothing worthwhile. I'm going through pretty much the same situation, with a cheap Dell PowerVault LTO-4-120 (SAS). It works extremely well in both Windows and Linux (with the included SAS card and cable and free software) but on the Mac... it's a completely different story.

We have some very high end customers and backup on those SANS pretty much all have to be done via Linux or even Solaris. We even have a client doing realtime replication, and some that are doing partial restore functions of QuickTime files. They're the only non-Mac machines on the networks...

I guess for us, the cheapest and simplest will always be a cheap Linux box with a bunch of drives. The good thing, I guess, is that it won't tie up a Mac for backup/restore, but it does add a lot of complication, IMHO.

--
Rune Hansen
Simplemente
 
Standard LTO-3 (or any LTO version for that matter) can recover single files. It's all relative to the software system or backup workflow in place.

Here's my take on the LTO-3A unit...

Pros:
All-in-one unit with nice FTP and web interface, no extra software needed.
Great connectivity, gig-ethernet
Fast
Uses conventional LTO-3 media
Accessible by any system on the network (but so is a self-contained back-up PC)

Cons:
Expensive - I can build two very nice SFF PCs holding LTO-3 drives for the same price.
Proprietary data format - You will always have to seek out an LTO-3A unit to read your tapes or hope that Quantum releases or licenses LTO-3A software to be used with regular LTO-3 drives.
No backward compatibility with LTO-1/2 - This is a huge problem for those upgrading an established LTO system.

All things considered, I'm still thinking of going with LTO-3A. Because it's just about as easy as opening the box, plugging it in and you're backing up your data from any system on your network. Yes it's more expensive, but in the grand scheme of things, that's really insignificant, especially if it saves you time.
 
Yep, Atempo and BakBone are expensive... :-(

Matthew,

That's very encouraging news from tolisgroup about BRU. When I contacted them a month or so back on the same issue, they had no answers for me and were recommending the ATTO SCSI card with the Quantum or HP SCSI LTO-3 drives. So it sounds like they are actively testing various solutions.
 
Just some thoughts...

Just some thoughts...

I've been following this thread since it started in January and to answer the title "LTO-3 still the way to go?" I would have to say, "Yes, absolutely". However the big question that has seemed to arise is "How?" My simple answer to this is..."Just bite the bullet and buy the damn Quantum A series drive!" Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for finding a cheap reliable solution for making workflows work, I've been doing that for years now. But this one is easy. A year ago I spent months looking into options for dealing with all the data that I knew we would be having to deal with once our camera arrived. We eventually decided on the Quantum A series drive and bought it last July, six months before our first camera was coming. There were a lot of reasons why we chose it, but let me just point out a few. If you look at it from the average video production point of view, this is basically replacing a video tape deck. If you shoot any type of professional tape based format, you are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a deck, just to be able to playback and record to those tapes (weather it's Digibeata, HDCAM or HDCAM SR). Obviously the price range can vary, depending on the format, from $10k to $100k. So we are talking about spending $6k-$7k on an LTO drive that will let you store all your R3D files and do so much more. We got our drive long before our camera, because we knew that we could put it to use right away to back up and store tons of media and project files from our HDCAM based workflow. Another key factor here is that this drive is sooooooo easy and simple to use. You can plug it into any, that's right ANY computer with an Ethernet port and a web browser and use it immediately. It's as simple as that. No need to install anything, no need for expensive software, no need for video I/O hardware, nothing. It just simply works, weather it's a mac, a pc, a desktop, a laptop, IT WORKS! This is such a simple and versatile piece of hardware that is absolutely worth every penny spent on it. You will not regret buying one.

Now realistically, if I were looking into this today, if I didn't have a solution in place, would I buy one right now, today? Well being that NAB is only weeks away, if I could hold off I would, because who knows what will show up there, but... if I can't wait and need something in place now, then I would not hesitate to buy an A-series drive today, because I know it works and will work and continue to be used for a variety of different purposes for a long time to come. Not that anyone is listening to me, but that's just my 2 cents on the matter.
 
Finally just completed my first conference call with engineers from Quantum and our wholesaler. They are going to work up several solutions. Everyone agreed that the LTO-3A Ethernet solution is good but cross compatibility is an issue. Although the FTP software is dedicated to video, Quantum is going to see if there is any way they could give us an option that would also let us write a standard data archive that would be widely compatible - sort of the best of both worlds. Pricing is another issue on this solution - 6K - 7K.

There also is a fiber optic solution that is very fast, will work with notebooks, and potentially has good cross compatibility, but it is also expensive.

And, finally, there is the simple desktop data archive solution.

What they are going to do is put together several possible solutions at different price points. I told them that all of you were a "tough crowd" when it comes to pricing so they better really cut their margins.

This is all taking longer than I had anticipated. I also agree with Jeremy that at NAB we may see some good bundled solutions. I'm not sure how this will pan out but I still feel that it is worthwhile to pursue. Hope what we find will be of some value to the group. It should be good information to have before NAB to help you evaluate what other solutions are out there.
 
Am I correct in my research that the 600A Quantom LTO-3A is almost $10k?? Jeremy mentions that it is $6k-$7k. Where can I find it for that range? Given that you can get a normal LTO-3 bay for under $2k, and Jeff says you can can retrieve individual files, paying 500% more for a 600A seems unfortunate.
 
Dell PowerVault LTO-4-120 External Tape Drive

Dell PowerVault LTO-4-120 External Tape Drive

What about this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360034168071&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023

it look's cheaper ? UNDER 2K

i don't have any early knowledge about this kind of technology

3151_1206565655.jpg


is it enough or do i need other (LONG STORY) ITEMS
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Am I correct in my research that the 600A Quantom LTO-3A is almost $10k?? Jeremy mentions that it is $6k-$7k. Where can I find it for that range? Given that you can get a normal LTO-3 bay for under $2k, and Jeff says you can can retrieve individual files, paying 500% more for a 600A seems unfortunate.
Click to expand...

Hey Shawn,

We bought ours from 5280 Digital out of Denver, you should be able to find a dealer in the Oregon area from the Quantum website.
 
I'm interested in a fibrechannel LTO drive, connected to a Mac Pro's fibrechannel card. Any suggestions?

What sort of throughput are 3A owners getting?
 
A series now has the SuperLoader 3A -- a 16 tape auto loader in a 2U rackmount. I have not yet found anyone able to give me a price. Supposedly the 3A units are directly accessible by Final Cut, but I was unable to get any sort of demo or details at NAB. I was rather unimpressed with the level of (or lack of) expertise at the Quantum booth.

IMO, HP had the much better backup solutions and LTO systems overall. Very knowledgeable people and helpful. However, when I inquired about any potential support or connectivity for Mac / OSX, they just blew me off.
 
Interesting to hear you say that Jeff.

In my opinion it seems that a lot, infact most, of the tape storage companies have simply not fullly grasped the needs and the scale of the film/TV industry. Yes they've noticed we're out there and made some token gestures but they seem to be stuck very much in the realm of network/ISP back up.

The minute they, as companies, properly realise the sheer scale of the High defintion shooting/post market I suspect you'll see some real action.

Having a tape storage field back-up system is what I and I suspect many others are aiming for with RED and now potentially SCARLET & EPIC. (i.e secure back-up for when hard-drives are not really suitable)

I don't know if they've done it already but maybe, if they've got the time(!), the RED team should just tap them on the shoulder and have a word reminding them of the 3000+ cameras they got on order and the possible post market that entails!!! (I'm currently looking possibly at at least two LTO-3/3A/4 drives as part of my workflow one for field use the other for post)

JohnF
 
Backup Software

Backup Software

I did the math on LTO-4 drives and tapes and found that for <65TB it was cheaper for me to go with SATA drives for backup. (That was when LTO drives cost $4K and 800GB media cost $80.) Yes, there's the question of how long they will last as archival material, but I contend that properly stored they'll have no problem lasting 5 years and 5 years from now using historical trends you'll be able to copy them over to new drives at 1/8th the price, not to mention having other options. Of course, if you have 100TB to back up (and many of you do) then tape drive is a no-brainer. In my personal experience, though, I've had much more trouble with tapes going bad than disks, especially when the disks are NOT in daily use.

As for backup software on the Mac, I've used Retrospect for years and found it easy to use, fully featured, and reliable. It supports backing up to anything I've every wanted to back up to or thought I might want to back up to, including hard drives, DVDs, and a myriad of tape drives. It also supports remote back up so you can back up your whole office through one server connected to your backup storage device.

The question I don't have an answer to is whether any other software can restore files from an LTO tape the Retrospect backed them up to.
 
Doing the math on which is cheaper (drives or tape) it's not a whole lot different now. Just be sure that you factor duplicate tapes / drives into your numbers. I would never trust a single tape or drive as my only archival copy.

Drives are not meant to sit on a shelf... They last longer when they are being used, in most cases. Even the drive manufacturers will tell you this.

By my math with 500GB HDDs vs. LTO-3A for a total of 100TB of data (meaning 200TB of archival storage) I come up with:

$33K for HDDs

$16K for LTO-3A tapes plus $7500 to buy the desktop 3A drive = $23.5K.

Tape wins hands-down.

On the other hand, if we're only archiving 50TB of data the same way (100TB worth of storage), then HDDs puts me at $16.5K. And LTO-3A tapes + Drive puts me at $15.5K. So still in favor of tape, but only by $1K. Anything less than about 50TB or so would start to price out in favor of 500GB HDDs, for those people who feel comfortable with doing it that way.
 
Ok, so it sounds like Lto3 is still the way to go...

Here is what I am thinking. I'd make 2 copies of the footage :
- 1 backup to LTO3 A-Series tape through Ethernet connection for archival
- 1 backup to a 320 or 500 GB hard-drive, easier to access than tape, so the client doesn't need a Quantum drive to copy and use his footage.

Where did you guys find the best prices for LTO3 600A drives ?
The best price I've found in France so far is 6400 € (excl. VAT), that would be something like $10.000...:wacko:

I don't mind buying it in the US or anywhere else, but where is the best place ?

Thanks for your help.
Nils.
 
Don't confuse the 600A with the LTO-3A. That could be why you're having trouble finding the drive.

The 600A is the SDLT model. The LTO model is simply LTO-3A and with that model designation, it is available only as a desktop style unit. There is now also the SuperLoader 3A, which is the same tape mechanism combined into a 2U rack-mount unit that can auto-load between 16 tapes. I have not been able to get a price from anyone yet on the SuperLoader 3A. The MSRP on the LTO-3A desktop unit is (US)$9,995. I have seen prices ranging from $7500 to $10K. I was quoted $7250 for it about a month ago and that vendor says they will still honor it, but as of yet they can't even get a unit from Quantum to sell me. The drives are a bit scarce.

The 3A series offers ethernet interface with various FTP and web tools. Pros of this are easy installation and access to the unit from any system on the local network, no extra backup software to rely on.

Cons are; proprietary data format on the tape. Must have a 3A series unit to access the data for now. Quantum reps seemed to get irritated when I asked about software tools to access standard formatted LTO media from the LTO-3A and vice versa. It's technically possible, but the question is will Quantum do it or will Quantum allow it. 3A units are not backward compatible with LTO-1, LTO-2 media -- conventional LTO-3 and LTO-4 drives are backward compatible.

I have a strong suspicion that the 3A series drives are a glimpse at what the future tape solutions from Quantum will be like. Entirely self-contained with their own interface and data format structure. Easily to deploy and operate within any environment.
 
Yes, you're right, I meant LTO-3A. Thanks Jeff.
Found one around € 5200 (= $ 8200)...
I'll keep looking.

I hope some day Quantum will allow a better compatibility with normal LTO drives. As you said, it's technically possible. At least, make the tapes readable in normal LTO-3 drives. That surely wouldn't hurt their sales...

Nils.
 
Update...

MSRP on the SuperLoader 3A is (US)$13,999. Some online stores are starting to put them in their catalog. MacMall has it listed for about $13.3K. They are sold out of the LTO-3A desktop unit and have removed it from their catalog. They did have it for just under $8K a few weeks back.

I'm thinking that Quantum is approaching the LTO-3A market very cautiously, trying to gauge demand.
 
Anyone installed firmware update?

Anyone installed firmware update?

Gents, has anyone installed the firmware update on their 3a yet? I've tried to download the software for our Superloader 3a from Quantum but unfortunately 2 of the 3 files fail to mount on our powermac when we download them (the "V50 Library Firmware" & "LTO-3A V20246216 Drive Firmware" return a "no mountable file systems error") and while the last file "LTO-3A V2.6.0 Server Firmware" will download and mount, the READ ME file that the quantum says tells you how to install is not in the folder when it downloads?? I've got an email out to Quantum but I'm hoping someone here has some insights. THANKS!
 
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