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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

LTO-3 still the way to go?

If I'm not mistaken the SATA/SAS compatibility thing is a one-way street. SAS controllers are (usually?) able to communicate with SATA devices, but a SATA controller cannot communicate with a SAS device. The SAS protocol incorporates a 'SATA tunneling' layer allowing it to interface with SATA devices.

I don't think there are any SAS ExpressCards available (physically impossible perhaps?) - however it would be possible with the ExpressBox but that might start to get a little clunky.

I still not convinced that LTO on set it really a great idea.
 
I've personally done in 15 LTO-3 drives, and that was not being on set...
 
You will need a SAS controller to connect an external SAS tape drive, an eSATA card in the laptop should not work - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Attached_SCSI

You could use an external PCI chassis with SAS controller, but it would need some development to make a reliable solution on location.

Having some experience with the Viper, where on location tape backup is a necessity due to the huge amount of uncompressed data that it generates, I'm somewhat surprised that people are looking to use data tape backup on location with the RED, which generates very small data files.

I'm very happy using LTO in my machine room, but would only take it on location if absolutely necessary!

One possible reason is to keep insurance/completion bond folks happy, is this an issue for anyone shooting features on RED?

Dave
 
Our supplier just got approval from Quantum to make the External LTO3 drives available for $1600 and might be able to do better pending quantity. I just got off the phone with Quantum engineers and they are helping us figure out a complete solution including cards and cables. I have another conference call with them tomorrow.

The Quantum LTO 3 drive is available with either SAS or SCSI interface.

The drive ships with:
· LTO 3 Ultrium Tape Drive
· Software Media
· Data cartridge
· Cleaning cartridge
· SAS cable or SCSI Cable
· Power cord
· Product documentation


I'm staying out of the debate about whether this is a good solution on location or not but I do believe that it is a good way to archive right now. I have worked with other tape drives and agree that they can be tempermental but once you get the process worked out they seem fairly reliable.


For us I think the solution will be a mix of large format drives and LTO 3.

One other quick note - I have seen some mention on these forums regarding the large format LACIE drives - our experience with their larger drives hasn't been good. Their smaller drives have been very reliable but four of their big drives have crashed and burned. Hope this saves a few people some headaches.


Jim
 
Jim Logan said:
Our supplier just got approval from Quantum to make the External LTO3 drives available for $1600 and might be able to do better pending quantity. I just got off the phone with Quantum engineers and they are helping us figure out a complete solution including cards and cables. I have another conference call with them tomorrow.
Click to expand...

If while on the call you can find out if a card like the RocketRAID 2322 would work with the SAS drive everything would be solved. It would be far cheaper than the SCSI320 solution and then you'd also have the other port on the card for a RAID system.

Matthew
 
Yeah, when I tried the Dell LTO-4 to eSATA, I didn't expect it to work. I just happened to have a mini-SAS to single eSATA oddball cable for another purpose and thought I'd try it. I was skeptical, but I found someone in another forum claiming it would work with the drive... Nope.

The RocketRaid w/ external mini-SAS would be a great option -- they're about $275 last time I looked. I'm also curious what software options we will have since many of us would like to hook up to a Mac and not PC. Or is it the standard bundled PC-only garbage that comes with the standard Quantum kit?

$1600 is a fair price, but nothing special. The same kit (with cable, one 400GB tape, cleaning tape, docs, power cord), sells for $1605 for the SAS model from Provantage, they have the SCSI version of the kit for $1589.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Yeah, when I tried the Dell LTO-4 to eSATA, I didn't expect it to work. I just happened to have a mini-SAS to single eSATA oddball cable for another purpose and thought I'd try it. I was skeptical, but I found someone in another forum claiming it would work with the drive... Nope.
Click to expand...

So your saying that you went of mini-sas on the LTO drive to a card (rocketraid?) that had a esata connector on it? If that's the case, I am wondering if the sas to sas off the rocketraid would actually work. I'm not sure what happens to be able to go from sas to esata, so maybe sas to sas would still work.

Matthew
 
macville said:
So your saying that you went of mini-sas on the LTO drive to a card (rocketraid?) that had a esata connector on it? If that's the case, I am wondering if the sas to sas off the rocketraid would actually work. I'm not sure what happens to be able to go from sas to esata, so maybe sas to sas would still work.
Click to expand...

No, didn't mean to confuse. I attempted to connect an LTO SAS drive to an eSATA port (CalDigit controller in this case) via a mini-SAS to eSATA cable I had for another application. I didn't think it would work, but I ran across a post in another forum where someone said it did. But no, it doesn't work, SAS controllers can often interface with SATA devices, but not the other way around.

I'm hoping that the RocketRaid with dual external SAS connectors will work.

I'm curious to know what software will be offered with the drive or if this is just the standard Quantum bundle kit. If it's the standard kit, then it's garbage PC-only software and the $1600 price is just OK. Provantage will beat that price as they sell the Quantum LTO-3 HH desktop kit (includes software, interface cable, cleaning cartridge, data cartridge..) for $1589 for the SCSI version and $1605 for the SAS version. I called them and they said they'd sell me the SAS kit for the same price as the SCSI. But they didn't know for sure which host cards would work with it.

My recent inquiry here about Mac backup solutions didn't get me much info or help. For the client, I ended up going with the HH desktop Dell LTO-4-120 SAS drive and their supplied HBA (LSI Logic, if I recall). Attached to a Linux PC with internal RAID-5. Client can back-up to this little "backup server" via network, the system writes to the tape at night, they swap tapes every other monday morning (an alarm goes off until it's swapped and someone clears it), alarm also goes off if the tape is filled early. Working great so far, client is happy even though they wanted to run the tape drive and backup software off an existing Mac Pro server. It basically gives them most of the functionality of an LTO-3A system, but double capacity and other benefits the LTO-3A can't offer like the backward compatibility to LTO-2 that they needed. The whole setup was about 40% cheaper than one of those LTO-3A drives. I'm seriously considering this setup for myself rather than trying to attach a drive that will have minimal or no support to a Mac. I'm thinking of making myself a dedicated cube PC with internal RAID, LTO-3 or LTO-4, CF slot(s) that can be a dedicated off-load, review and backup workstation for both on and off set applications.
 
I just keep trying to drive the price lower. We'll see where it goes. So far software is standard bundle but I can work on getting them to throw in more. We're mostly PC centric but may have to look to a MAC solution for all of this. Check out the Fletcher solution that I posted earlier - it is all MAC. Maybe Tom Fletcher will be interested in selling these but it will probably cost $$$$$.
 
Well, I just ran into another issue! I did a search of compatible LTO drives for OSX and the SAS HH LTO-3 drive is NOT supported by Retrospect (at least according to their database.) However, the SCSI drive IS supported. Unless someone knows of other software for OSX that would work with the SAS drives, the SCSI version is the only way to go.

Matthew
 
You don't want to use Retrospect on OSX -- it SUCKS! Retrospect has fallen behind several other solutions these days and their OSX offering is a joke (IMNSHO).

In fact, most OSX backup software just plain sucks.. Freebie products on Windows are typically lightyears ahead of what people pay money for on the Mac. Sad, but true.

If you want a commercial product, take a look at BRU, BakBone and Atempo.

There is also Amanda, which is open source, but requires Linux for the server component, so doesn't help us much.

Seriously, when people go to set up a decent backup solution on OSX, they're going to be in for a rude awakening. I wanted to test out the SAS LTO-4 drive on OSX when I was setting that up. However, there were no OSX drivers available for the HBA, so I couldn't do it. I couldn't find any commercial software that listed support for SAS drives under OSX. Actually, I take that back, eitehr BakBone or Atempo list one of the HP SAS drives, but have a * by the entry on their list. ...Which if you scroll to the bottom says that it is "untested". In other words, support for that drive is in their codebase and works on the Windows and/or Linux version of the software, but they didn't bother to find an OSX compliant HBA, connect the unit and try it out.

I'm not trying to crap on this thread or this idea, but I've been researching tape systems and backup options for the Mac for the past couple months. Currently Exabyte (Tandberg) is the only major manufacturer of tape drive units that proactively supports Mac solutions and they will bundle OSX compliant backup software (Atempo TimeNavigator) for OSX customers on request. As of last month, there wasn't much (if anything) there for SAS support. All SCSI and several fiber-channel options for their Magnum and other larger libraries. Which to tell the truth, if you don't need to be mobile, the Magnum 224 LTO-3 FC is sure sexy and about the same price as a nice Windows or Linux "backup server" with a single slot LTO-4 drive.

IMO, the SFF PC with internal LTO tape drive and RAID-5 built out of 2.5" HDDs is making a lot of sense for a field offload and backup unit. I wish Quantum, Exabyte and others would release some tape drive products with eSATA interfaces. Sony has done so with their AIT tape systems, but AIT isn't all that great or widely supported.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
IMO, the SFF PC with internal LTO tape drive and RAID-5 built out of 2.5" HDDs is making a lot of sense for a field offload and backup unit. I wish Quantum, Exabyte and others would release some tape drive products with eSATA interfaces. Sony has done so with their AIT tape systems, but AIT isn't all that great or widely supported.
Click to expand...

This is something we've been looking at (at ShotWrangler) I expect we will have some sort offering to meet this need once we have the SolidStore out the door. Although I still personally feel that 'in the field' is not a great location for tape drives (I certainly wouldn't want one on most of the sets I've worked on).

The workflow we envisage being most suitable is in-field backup to drive cartridges in the field and then backing them up to tape at 'the office' or somewhere else fairly permanent. But we're still pretty much wide open on where that'll go.

As for SATA LTO drives, I believe there is some sort of technical reason they aren't available (I read somewhere about it, but I can't find it now). SAS seems to be the most future-proof option now, although GigEthernet is possible a good option as well, although I am a little dubious.
 
I just want to make sure that everyone understands why the A Series LTO3 is such a perfect fit for RED.

On an A Series drive - you can pull a SINGLE .r3d file off of the LTO3. You can pull off a single DPX frame, etc. With the cheaper, standard LTO3 format, you will need to offload the ENTIRE tape. Yawn!! The TIME you save with the 600A LTO3 drive - FAR exceeds the additional cost of A series drive.

Ethernet connection allows you to access drive over your network, PC, MAC, laptop, whatever.
 
I'm not sure that's correct. I've certainly restored single files from a standard LTO series tape before (not RED related, but certainly a single file). Also, if it's correct that A-Series tapes are incompatible with standard LTO drives then that strikes me a pretty big negative mark.
 
Sycophant said:
I'm not sure that's correct. I've certainly restored single files from a standard LTO series tape before (not RED related, but certainly a single file). Also, if it's correct that A-Series tapes are incompatible with standard LTO drives then that strikes me a pretty big negative mark.
Click to expand...

Maybe you are correct, but that is not my understanding. I have only used A series - once I tried it I was in love.

Can you describe HOW you retrieve a single .r3d file from a LTO3 (non A series)?? What steps exactly?

A series and Non-A series are NOT compatible. But I find that hard to be "negative" if it save me tons of time. All of the post production places I met with last week in LA that were working with RED have or are about to have A series LTO.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
In fact, most OSX backup software just plain sucks.. Freebie products on Windows are typically lightyears ahead of what people pay money for on the Mac. Sad, but true.

If you want a commercial product, take a look at BRU, BakBone and Atempo.

Seriously, when people go to set up a decent backup solution on OSX, they're going to be in for a rude awakening. I wanted to test out the SAS LTO-4 drive on OSX when I was setting that up. However, there were no OSX drivers available for the HBA, so I couldn't do it. I couldn't find any commercial software that listed support for SAS drives under OSX. Actually, I take that back, eitehr BakBone or Atempo list one of the HP SAS drives, but have a * by the entry on their list. ...Which if you scroll to the bottom says that it is "untested". In other words, support for that drive is in their codebase and works on the Windows and/or Linux version of the software, but they didn't bother to find an OSX compliant HBA, connect the unit and try it out.
Click to expand...

Researching BRU LE more I found out that it supports the HP Storage Works LTO-3 920--which I believe is just a rebranded Quantum LTO Ultrium LTO-3 drive. Anyhow, I have emailed them to see if they will support the Quantum LTO3 HH external SAS drive.

It frustrating that they have already been able to port games intel to run natively in OSX, but haven't done much about other software. My other thought is to just get the SAS drive and some windows software. Every time I need to write to tape I can just boot into windows.

Matthew
 
Sycophant said:
I'm not sure that's correct. I've certainly restored single files from a standard LTO series tape before (not RED related, but certainly a single file). Also, if it's correct that A-Series tapes are incompatible with standard LTO drives then that strikes me a pretty big negative mark.
Click to expand...

You can do that with retrospect. Although retrospect as Jeff mentioned above is not fun at all.

Hans
 
Mark,

Could you please direct me to the "600A LTO3 drive" you are using.
On Quantum site I see LTO-3A series drive but not model "600A".
"600A" is seems to be a DLT model.
I'm bit confused.

Thanks ahead.
Priit
 
Just got this reply from Page at Tolisgroup (they make BRU LE) in response to my question about their software working with the Quantum SAS drive I have been looking at.

"Hi Matthew,
Thank you for your e-mail!
Yes, BRU LE supports this (thanks for the link), just be aware that BRU LE is designed for single system backup--not an XSAN with millions of files--the issue with millions of files and large amounts of data is that on the restore the restore panel populates slowly (and painfully) as LE was not designed to handle that type of data load. If you are backing up multiple systems and tons of data or an XSAN, please use BRU Server (also supports that device), if you are not, then LE will be fine.
Kind Regards,
Paige"

I haven't tried the software to see how I like it, but I think I may have found a winner.

Matthew
 
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