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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Low Light RED-mini?

G

George Felner

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Will there be a Low-Light Red-mini for the low-light lightweight kit fanatics? I used to have a Red one, then a Red Epic.. for a good 7 years but to be honest.. now I'm in the A7S, then A7SII world I can't imagine going back.. but I miss one thing.. and thats the RedCode.. oh the magic of the Redcode.. infinite flexibility in post, and butter smooth on the slowest of computers.. Please Red will you make a super low-light small RED camera? Canon made one.. but doesn't do 4K .. I just love natural light.. just the way the world really is. Indoors and out. No pretend natural light, no emulation. No interpretation. No simulation. No false original source of lighting. Just real, available light. Low light isn't a candle shot or a city at night. Lets face it, you're filming lights! Low light is low light. City lights at night are pretty bright..
Just you, a small backpack, a passport and an idea.
 
Sounds like a7s 2 with shogun recorder is your best bet, Raven is reds small cam
 
Yes, I've got the A7SII :) but sold the Shogun.. Its nice to be able to invest in glass and not camera parts..
I want something very compact.. will rent one if doing big screen stuff.. Raven is the same size as my old Red Epic I imagine? how is the low light on it?
 
What ISO do you want to shoot at?

You can shoot a RED in natural light. You just need enough of it to make exposure. The kind of things that the low light cameras do to acheive see-in-the-darkedness is not what I would want in a cinema camera. The cost for the organic beauty and resolution without processesing trickery is light. So, light. It's a cinema camera.
 
Raven won't be awesome in low light
 
I agree with what you are saying Hugh, and I kinda of expected this response sooner or later.. I like to spark a debate. But I prefer the A7S sensitivity for the type of shoots I want.. Locations I can't bring big lights at etc.. Ive done a few with the Red Epic, and to be frank I found it a little noisy. The A7s just opened a lot of doors and freedom to shoot anywhere at anytime.. its refreshing.. The Red is great with a crew and organised production with a budget.. Ive tried making the Epic a portable thing.. even had it stripped down to a monitor and cabled it to a Vmount on my belt.. but it was a big chunk of weight in the end of the day.. and I had to always find some light.. perhaps there will be a more sensitive sensor soon.. Will keep my eyes open. Like I said. I still prefer the Redcode over any other camera. But thats the only thing I miss, that and the touchscreen menu
features.
 
The Raven weighs 3.5lbs. And should be clean at 2000 ISO. Maybe even 4000 ISO like it's Weapon big brother.

Sounds pretty good to me.
 
Remember red's iso's are about a stop darker than most
 
what does it weight with the battery, monitor, side handle and memory card? Id love to see some R3D of the 4000iso.. any links?
 
yes.. but not only.. when all cameras were 12 megapixels they weren't exactly see-in-the-dark cameras.. The Canon model with a million ISO i don't think its the sensor size...
 
George Felner said:
yes.. but not only.. when all cameras were 12 megapixels they weren't exactly see-in-the-dark cameras.. The Canon model with a million ISO i don't think its the sensor size...
Click to expand...

It is a given that sensor technology is moving forward on all cameras. I think what David is saying is that - given all other technological improvements in the general world of cameras - the larger photo sites are an enabling technology for such extraordinary light sensitivity. Smaller sites just won't don't have the same characteristics in gathering light.
 
George Felner said:
I agree with what you are saying Hugh, and I kinda of expected this response sooner or later.. I like to spark a debate. But I prefer the A7S sensitivity for the type of shoots I want.. Locations I can't bring big lights at etc.. Ive done a few with the Red Epic, and to be frank I found it a little noisy. The A7s just opened a lot of doors and freedom to shoot anywhere at anytime.. its refreshing.. The Red is great with a crew and organised production with a budget.. Ive tried making the Epic a portable thing.. even had it stripped down to a monitor and cabled it to a Vmount on my belt.. but it was a big chunk of weight in the end of the day.. and I had to always find some light.. perhaps there will be a more sensitive sensor soon.. Will keep my eyes open. Like I said. I still prefer the Redcode over any other camera. But thats the only thing I miss, that and the touchscreen menu
features.
Click to expand...

The fact that there isn't such a RED now doesn't preclude them making one sometime, so no harm in askin'. I wonder, and I say wonder because honestly I don't know, what the default noise reduction and in camera sharpening that the low-light cameras use, in conjunction with the larger photosites to achieve their other worldly results. It seems to me to create images that are astounding, no doubt, but smoothed in ways that appear artificial, at least to me.

I will see and show images from my Dragon with skin that seems mottled to some. But I suggest that it is a more faithful representation of what's there. I find it pleasing or beautiful (sorry overused but "organic") but some folks don't necessarily. Actually, it kind of knocks me out. However, I will also put up some GlimmerGlass to knock that down with some older actresses for something more flattering, so I understand how "smoothness" can be desirable too. I would just prefer to shoot at lower ISOs to have that quality then be saddled with the smoothness, I perceive, inherent in the images in the low-light cameras.

Kinda begs the question: would you still have clean results with a RAW version of a similar sensor at ISO 6400 without the added processing high jinx?
 
George Felner said:
yes.. but not only.. when all cameras were 12 megapixels they weren't exactly see-in-the-dark cameras..
Click to expand...

What full-frame 35mm 12MP sensor camera in the past were you thinking of? Most I can remember were APS-C or smaller.

Larger photosites are more effective collectors of light. Combine that with keeping the noise down in the system and noise reduction circuitry, you will have an effective combination. But if you start out with smaller photosites, you have a bigger hill to climb in terms of increasing sensitivity. Just look at the A7SII versus the A7RII, the one with the larger photosites is the more sensitive, but both share the same noise reduction technology.
 
Well, I haven't used Denoiser software ever again.. thats a great thing.
The Canon 1 million ISO, is lower light than the A7S .. The real estate of the sensor and low megapixels contribute, but not only.
 
Well, if you want low light.... Turn on frame averaging. You should be able to retain 24fps motion with 4 frame averaging at a lot of resolutions, and you'll drop the noise floor signifanctly. If you're shooting stills, turn the frame averaging up to 16 and you're practically noiseless at ISO6400.

Graeme
 
Whoa.. thanks Graeme. I just looked it up. I've never tried it. I am giving that a go.
 
George Felner said:
Will there be a Low-Light Red-mini for the low-light lightweight kit fanatics? I used to have a Red one, then a Red Epic.. for a good 7 years but to be honest.. now I'm in the A7S, then A7SII world I can't imagine going back.. but I miss one thing.. and thats the RedCode.. oh the magic of the Redcode.. infinite flexibility in post, and butter smooth on the slowest of computers.. Please Red will you make a super low-light small RED camera? Canon made one.. but doesn't do 4K .. I just love natural light.. just the way the world really is. Indoors and out. No pretend natural light, no emulation. No interpretation. No simulation. No false original source of lighting. Just real, available light. Low light isn't a candle shot or a city at night. Lets face it, you're filming lights! Low light is low light. City lights at night are pretty bright..
Just you, a small backpack, a passport and an idea.
Click to expand...


Yep...

That would be a instant sale for me to.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Well, if you want low light.... Turn on frame averaging. You should be able to retain 24fps motion with 4 frame averaging at a lot of resolutions, and you'll drop the noise floor signifanctly. If you're shooting stills, turn the frame averaging up to 16 and you're practically noiseless at ISO6400.

Graeme
Click to expand...

What is this dark magic you speak of?
 
Try it Mark! And yes, it's dark magic, but works just fine in bright light too! Only thing to be aware of is the possibility of motion artifacts from the averaging, but when I did a test with one of my daughters dancing around a dimly lit room, I could see that motion got smoother, but I didn't exactly see anything much in the way that was distracting.

Graeme
 
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