Looking for advice buying my first RED (Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon or Scarlet-W)

[Birk Kromann]

Hi all,

This is my first post so I'm very sorry if I come across as a noob, have posted in the wrong forum etc.

As the title states I'm looking to buy my first RED. The cameras that I am considering are the following:

RED Scarlet Dragon (used)
RED Epic Dragon (used)
RED Scarlet-W (new)

Pricewise a used Scarlet Dragon is by far the cheapest solution for me, but there's a big difference between resolution, framerates, compression and features.
I know it's difficult to answer and help without a bit of context, so here goes:

98% of what I shoot is for 2K delivery. I shoot a lot of 50fps and 48fps, and a bit of 96fps and 100fps but it's by no means a must for me. I shoot both well lit studio scenarios, low budget short films, commercials and musicvideos - so a bit of everything. Low light do happen as well but it seems that's a topic very well covered on other posts on the forum.

I don't need proxies (as I mainly shoot for 2K making 1/4 resolution 5K material no problem) so the ProRes in the Scarlet-W doesn't matter too much. The same goes for many of the other new features in the DSMC2 bodies - or have I missed something?

So what do I do? Go the cheap route with the Scarlet Dragon or buy either the Scarlet-W new or the Epic Dragon used? Used Scarlets and Epics being the ones with most accesories and the Scarlet-W being the newest and (it seems) the one with the most features.

What would you do in my situation?

 

[Birk Kromann]

And also, does the new IPP2 change anything with regards to this? Or am I correct in assuming that it doesn't change anything as the sensor is the same in all of them?

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

IPP2 can be applied in post and won't be possible to preview in any of these cameras when shooting. That levels the playing field for sure.

A big question is this -- are you looking to hold onto this camera until it is obsolete, or are you looking to make an investment that can be upgraded? This is important because if you are looking to grab stuff on the cheap and hang onto this camera, then go Epic Dragon. If you want to be able to move accessories from one system to another RED down the line (or even just go for selling in a few years), then go Scarlet-W. Epic Dragon is still regarded as a fantastic pro camera and can achieve awesome framerates, plus that 6k on certain projects will be really beautiful. That being said, Scarlet-W is a really awesome camera in that price-range and is also as capable. Legitimately though, it won't get as much $ on rentals (the Scarlet name doesn't draw $) as even the older Epic Dragon could...but those days are very numbered.

I personally think you should toss Scarlet Dragon out the window if you can afford to go Epic Dragon/SW. You'll find its limits very quickly.

 

[Birk Kromann]

Hi Brendan. First of all thank you very much for your reply!

I'm most likely going to sell the camera again within a year or two. And at this point I don't think I'll be going the "upgrade-route"
I'm not sure, with my needs and the way I'm shooting, what interesting and useful things the Scarlet-W would bring to the table that warrants double the price of a (used) Scarlet Dragon.

Also, I'm not sure what limits I would find with the Scarlet Dragon as opposed to the Epic Dragon:

- I'm fine with the 5K crop of the sensor
- 48fps at 13-16:1 seems good enough for me with regards to slow motion and compression (have downloaded several R3D's to test it)
- 8:1 at 24fps is also plenty for me
- The 4K crop is also not a problem if I either need more FPS or lower compression

It's probably also worth noting that my current camera is a URSA Mini 4.6K and I've previously owned a FS7, so the Dragon would be an update no matter what.
I'm no expert at all so please correct me if there's anything I've missed

 

[Terry VerHaar]

One practical matter is the cost of the kit you plan to add to make your camera usable. If you go straight to the DSMC2 body (Scarlet-W), then all the accessories you add will be usable for the next few years. I have a Scarlet Dragon and I love it but I have spent a fair amount on accessories and many of those will become obsolete as I transition to DSMC2. That said, you can also now buy DSMC1 accessories for less but their longevity is limited. In the end, given that the cameras all produce great images, the calculation may be a mathematical one.

Enjoy the journey!

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

Hi Brendan. First of all thank you very much for your reply!

I'm most likely going to sell the camera again within a year or two. And at this point I don't think I'll be going the "upgrade-route"
I'm not sure, with my needs and the way I'm shooting, what interesting and useful things the Scarlet-W would bring to the table that warrants double the price of a (used) Scarlet Dragon.

Also, I'm not sure what limits I would find with the Scarlet Dragon as opposed to the Epic Dragon:

- I'm fine with the 5K crop of the sensor
- 48fps at 13-16:1 seems good enough for me with regards to slow motion and compression (have downloaded several R3D's to test it)
- 8:1 at 24fps is also plenty for me
- The 4K crop is also not a problem if I either need more FPS or lower compression

It's probably also worth noting that my current camera is a URSA Mini 4.6K and I've previously owned a FS7, so the Dragon would be an update no matter what.
I'm no expert at all so please correct me if there's anything I've missed

Cool! I would really, really recommend against going above 11:1 or 12:1, even for downsampling. You're upping your framerate so you'll probably be pushing up ISO a little and with high compression you will start to see some noise. This is just coming from someone who has learned that one the hard way more than once (on my helium sensor). It truly is a personal choice, but if you can maybe rent a Scarlet-Dragon for a day and shoot a quick test with your most typical work, that's super helpful. My threshold for noise and things may be very different than yours. Just saying that an Epic Dragon will last you a bit longer than the Scarlet Dragon will, and I think if it is within budget, it's a better move. That being said, gotta have the right camera at the right cost!

 

[Birk Kromann]

It truly is a personal choice, but if you can maybe rent a Scarlet-Dragon for a day and shoot a quick test with your most typical work, that's super helpful.

Very valid points you have! I can only get my hands on a Scarlet-W but I guess that shooting 5K 48fps 16:1 on that is the same as the Scarlet Dragon? But I will definetely test it out in the various scenarios.

I would be able to afford the Scarlet Dragon by just selling my current gear whereas the Epic Dragon would mean I would have to either wait 6 months or take a loan. No matter what, it would still be an upgrade from my current camera

I have a Scarlet Dragon and I love it but I have spent a fair amount on accessories and many of those will become obsolete as I transition to DSMC2.

Can't the DSMC accesories be used (with adapters) on the DSMC2 bodies? I have found Scarlet packages including pretty much everything I need for £7000 whereas Epic Dragon packages costs nearly £14000 so it is quite a big jump for me


And once again thank you so much for your help!