Looking for a post house with a great deal of RED experience.

[Lucas Wilson]

A correction: Steve Beres is not with Lightiron. He is with FotoKem.

Whoops - correct. Thanks for that, Michael...

Lucas

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Hey Andrew,

Be scrupulous on whether you guys are O.K. with a post house that may not use R3D files within their workflow.. for instance.. I was told that Quantel Pablo(a very popular DI machine) does not.. it imports R3D with "some" metadata.

~s

I don't know how to put this delicately, but sometimes I wish people that fall under that stereotypical assertion of "not knowing what they're talking about" as is the case above, refrained from making comments like this that have nothing to do with the scope of the conversation, if only for the sake of having their voices heard among competent professionals...

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I personally went to LightIron and meat there with Michael Cioni, Katie and team, I was extremely pleased with what they are doing there, and since my first project is a RED S3D project this brings the added need of high end Pro service, and I found my self very comfortable once I left LightIron, give your self a Huge favor and go pay them a visit, not only they do know what they are talking about, and IMHO they are amongst the best to go to guys for R3D related files, and they have a tremendous facility with state of the art Gear to support their work, but I also really Like Michael's and co. attitude regarding the work they get themselves in to, fro Passion is a huge element of getting some thing done right, were is not just about money, but about taking every project in its own specific needs.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Alphabetical list of professional RED post houses ...

Alphabetical list of professional RED post houses ...

.... Post production at that level is about a lot more than pretty pictures. It is about workflow, efficiency, flexibility, experience, and understanding of the market you're working in ....

Great quote, Mike .... as ever, astute observations on the nature of post and finishing services ... I also have to say that if any one needs a great freelance colorist (who knows RED inside out and back to front) Mike Most is your man.

Mike .... maybe you'd like to pull together an Alphabetical List of Post-Houses that you'd consider worthy of being called a professional RED House?

Jarred, would you consider putting a sticky on Mike's List?

Neil

 

[Sarah C.]

I don't know how to put this delicately, but sometimes I wish people that fall under that stereotypical assertion of "not knowing what they're talking about" as is the case above, refrained from making comments like this that have nothing to do with the scope of the conversation, if only for the sake of having their voices heard among competent professionals...

I asked specifically, and that's what I was told at Red Day. I didn't say Pablo did not work with Red media..I did say "import". That is a technical pipeline note not a comment of quality on any colorist or facility. I saw R3D RAW imported at Red Day.. on the Quantel Pablo.. I won't make further comment since you don't want to hear or know my $0.02 anyway. I have dealt with people who get into a project and flip over small things especially when not informed from the get-go. It's better to make notes on any workflow before getting into it. That's all that was stated and intended.

Edit: Actually.. there shouldn't be an issue of importing R3D to Pablo's proprietary format.. so why get the hackles raised? Or is there something we should know?

Edit#2: Only "issue" I see is that you may be importing your whole show into Pablo (or other DI that transcodes to its own proprietary format) and losing some or all your metadata.. and therefore starting your grading--potentially--from scratch. Maybe it does.. or maybe that doesn't bother you. It is worth the mention as this thread is titled "Looking for a post house with a great deal of RED experience". This is a workflow/time=money consideration.

~s

 

[M Most]

Mike .... maybe you'd like to pull together an Alphabetical List of Post-Houses that you'd consider worthy of being called a professional RED House?

Well, that's really the point. I don't believe in a "professional Red house." I believe in a professional post facility. Red is only one format among many. Granted, it has some of its own characteristics and quirks, but so does every other format. Every post facility, small and large, is now handling Red footage. What is important is the level of talent and expertise that is available, the level of efficiency the facility can operate with, and the degree to which their systems can complement your production, if they're providing front end services. These things are important regardless of the camera you're using. I make very little if any distinction between a great post facility and a great Red post facility.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

What is important is the level of talent and expertise that is available, the level of efficiency the facility can operate with, and the degree to which their systems can complement your production, if they're providing front end services.

Amen.

I make very little if any distinction between a great post facility and a great Red post facility.

I agree with your view - it's a nice idealogical way to look at things - but I also know lots of "great post facilities" that STILL fail to get the best out of RED material.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

but I also know lots of "great post facilities" that STILL fail to get the best out of RED material.

Amen

 

[Neil W. Smith]

semantics aside ...

semantics aside ...

Well, that's really the point. I don't believe in a "professional Red house." I believe in a professional post facility. Red is only one format among many. Granted, it has some of its own characteristics and quirks, but so does every other format. Every post facility, small and large, is now handling Red footage. What is important is the level of talent and expertise that is available, the level of efficiency the facility can operate with, and the degree to which their systems can complement your production, if they're providing front end services. These things are important regardless of the camera you're using. I make very little if any distinction between a great post facility and a great Red post facility.

Point taken, Mike, however, I agree with Mark's remark below than not all professional post-houses do RED workflow and color correction well .... which is what the original poster was asking for at the beginning of this thread.

So the question still remains .... would you be prepared to draw up an alphabetical list of post houses you consider to do a professional job on grading and finishing RED footage? .... would be useful for all RED filmmakers everywhere ... know you're busy but your objectivity and experience would be welcomed.

Neil

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

So the question still remains .... would you be prepared to draw up an alphabetical list of post houses you consider to do a professional job on grading and finishing RED footage? .... would be useful for all RED filmmakers everywhere ... know you're busy but your objectivity and experience would be welcomed.

Neil

Every post house on the planet would like to be on such a list - and it's pretty hard to be impartial - and it's a political ball-o-s#$t to start "promoting" one facility (by listing it) and not another (by leaving it off the list)

The RIGHT way to do this - is the following:

If RED could make the SHOT ON RED section of their website more database-like - and include post production credits.

Allow users to submit information - like IMDB - link to their films, trailers, etc. and enter credits - someone at RED on the website team moderates to the point that a basic, quick "fact check" takes place - and allow users to submit corrections.

Basically - make a "mini-IMDB" for Shot on Red films, television AND commercials. RMDB ?

I think it's cool to include commercials because most end up cleared and on the web - so easy to link to those.

If you make the users do 90% of the work - and just moderate it to avoid negative content - I think it would be great.

Users could search POST PRODUCTION CREDITS and they would see which companies (and colorists) are doing the best work on RED - rather than who got chosen to be on a list and who did not.

My 2 cents.

 

[Simon Blackledge]

Vote for RMDB here great idea!

 

[John Tissavary]

Every post house on the planet would like to be on such a list - and it's pretty hard to be impartial - and it's a political ball-o-s#$t to start "promoting" one facility (by listing it) and not another (by leaving it off the list)

The RIGHT way to do this - is the following:

If RED could make the SHOT ON RED section of their website more database-like - and include post production credits....

I completely agree - this is an elegant and impartial solution. As Mike mentioned, there are lots of facilities running Red footage these days, and your point about not all getting the most out of Red is very true. I think the 'shot on red' database could also help people find facilities that match their needs based on projects accomplished.

cheers,

John (processing & grading Red footage daily since Sept 2007) Tissavary

 

[M Most]

The RIGHT way to do this - is the following:

I agree that would be a pretty good approach, one that's impartial (as far as Red goes) and lets the user/reader decide which facilities are geographically and otherwise desirable, and have done work that is relevant to their particular project. To be really impartial, list in alphabetical order and divide it into regional sections.

With regard to the "not all post houses do good Red work," I would add a reverse cautionary note. Not all Red-specific companies do well with formats other than Red - including things like film recording. Some do. Many don't.

My 3 cents. (which makes the next contribution worth 4 cents.....)

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I would add a reverse cautionary note. Not all Red-specific companies do well with formats other than Red - including things like film recording. Some do. Many don't.

My 3 cents. (which makes the next contribution worth 4 cents.....)

I believe that statement.

But I KNOW you were not directing that statement at OFFHOLLYWOOD ...? As we are very proud of our shot-on-film work as well as our work with other formats. Starting a DI next week for SONY shot on ... guess what ... all SONY cameras.:wink5:

 

[M Most]

I believe that statement.

But I KNOW you were not directing that statement at OFFHOLLYWOOD ...?

I would hope you know that I wasn't. It was a general statement, just like the one that prompted it.

 

[C_Skaff]

Saying Pablo's don't use R3D's may sound somewhat misleading.

To be more specific, the Pablo has custom built video hardware that can process large resolution frames extremely fast- faster then most CPU's can decode most popular codecs. So in order to eliminate this bottleneck, the Pablo decodes compression during the auto-conform and operates internally uncompressed. The result is a MUCH more powerful overall performance.

For people new to this workflow, this may sound somewhat strange. But Pablo's with a Rocket installed can do this at 4K faster then realtime, so it's not really a big deal.

From the demos I've got of Pablo...
You start by importing the fotage inot its storage. Pablo CAN'T "work nativly" from the R3D, but thanks for the RedRocket it will import it extremly fast.
Bu tif you want to finish in 4K or at least work from 4K-source to be able to zoom, that will result in having a huge chunk of data as your source.
Maybe you started with 2TB of R3D and imported as 4K DPX it grows to XXXTB. Sure storage might be cheap, but its not so cheap when you need realtime 4K capable playback. But if you are rich, I guess it's no problem.

So once you have all the stuf finside the Pablo you should be able to grade it with plenty of layers and stuff thank to it strong hardware and smart software.

BUT there is a downside (in my mind) to work from a 4K DPX instead of the r3d.
Lets say you import everything as RedGamma/RedColor 6500Kelvin. But one shot was shot with 3200Kelvin lights... that will make your DPX very hard to workwith (as stated here at second post: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40067 )
OK, Pablo has a fix for that. you should be able to re-import that shot from the original r3d without too much hassle.
But imagine a dirty job were someone mixed Kelvin/ISO/Tint A LOT between avery other shot... then you would have to re-import stuff with almost individual settings. Now that might be techicaly fast, but since it now becomes a manual thing it will eat up you grading time.

For me, I would prefere to just work "nativly" from the r3d and not take up unesessary storage.

Note:
I could be wrong about all this, maybe they changed it latly. So if you are planing to use a Pablo and I made you hessitate... check for yourself and you might find that it WILL do a good job for you project.

(The best tool is the tool we know how to run)

 

[Lucas Wilson]

(The best tool is the tool we know how to run)

Quote of the day!!!! : )

Lucas

 

[Leandro Marini]

This is so entertaining to watch go down.

 

[Paul Korver]

I want my R3D

I want my R3D

BUT there is a downside (in my mind) to work from a 4K DPX instead of the r3d.
Lets say you import everything as RedGamma/RedColor 6500Kelvin. But one shot was shot with 3200Kelvin lights... that will make your DPX very hard to workwith (as stated here at second post: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40067 )
OK, Pablo has a fix for that. you should be able to re-import that shot from the original r3d without too much hassle.
But imagine a dirty job were someone mixed Kelvin/ISO/Tint A LOT between avery other shot... then you would have to re-import stuff with almost individual settings. Now that might be techicaly fast, but since it now becomes a manual thing it will eat up you grading time.

For me, I would prefere to just work "nativly" from the r3d and not take up unesessary storage.

I'm with you Carl. A lot of the big-iron color correctors debayer first to DPX then work from there. I have nothing against "big iron" as I own a Spirit and daVinci 2K... but as I'm currently shopping a high-end, 4K capable non-linear color correction system for our DI theater... the ability to work from R3D native is something that's on my shopping list. Why? We've fixed 5 jobs that I can think of (most recently a commercial with some overexposed RED footage for ARENA) by working from the R3D in Apple Color! (which I'm not a fan of other than it's ability to work from R3D) In each case there was an exposure issue and we were able to "see" more info in the native R3D than the debayered source that was delivered to us (some cases it was ProRes which would have been understandable... but others it was DPX).

You know I also love film so to use a film analogy... Debayering a whole RED show with the same settings and working from those DPXs would be similar to me putting someone's 35mm original camera negative on our film scanner and scanning all the film with the exact same dMin/dMax values regardless of the exposures on the negative. Most of you know that doing a proper DI scan requires monitoring and adjusting RGB level scene-to-scene to ensure the maximum amount of negative information is getting into the LOG DPX files. I guess maybe in this sense working from a Pablo or other "debayer first" color corrector is analogous to scanning film. And working from a color corrector that colors from the R3D "digital camera negative" is more like digital telecine... where you have access to the entire range of info on neg the at the time of scanning (because you can adjust light source on the fly). Is anyone tracking with me on this?

A perfect example is that now with the release of RedCine X... Jim is encouraging everyone to go back and debayer their older footage with this new tool ( http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40271 )

Can someone give me a list of the high-end color correction systems that let me look at and grade from R3D rather than from a debayered version?

-Paul

 

[M Most]

Can someone give me a list of the high-end color correction systems that let me look at and grade from R3D rather than from a debayered version?

You can't do anything without debayering because you'd be looking at an image that represents the Bayer filter array pattern. You must do some type of debayer in order to get a coherent RGB image. Having said that, Assimilate Scratch, Baselight, Iridas Speedgrade, Nucoda Film Master, and DaVinci Resolve all do a "live debayer" and maintain direct access to the SDK settings, so they allow you to do what you're asking. Unless something has changed, Pablo and Autodesk Lustre do not. I would also add that not all of the users of the above named systems actually use that capability.

I'm going to leave it up to you to define which of these systems you consider "high end."