Logic Pro vs Field Recorder

[Peter Van Straaten]

Hello,
I am shooting a low budget feature and I am very interested in capturing as good of sound as possible. As I understand it there are a couple of routes I can go; straight into the red, through a field recorder, or straight into my laptop with Logic Pro. I like the idea of going straight into the laptop due to not having to spend as much, thought I would still have to buy an audio interface. It seems to me like the field recorder is quite an expensive route and that going straight into the red you don't have the same flexibility.

My main question is if by going straight into Logic if you're going to get as good of sound and if you're going to run in to problems syncing it up. Which route is best?

Thanks for your time

Pete

 

[David Rasberry]

I can recommend a MOTU Ultralite firewire digital preamp. I am using one primarily for a front end to measurement and analysis software. But I bought this model because it has full SMPTE time code support for all of the common frame rates and can act as master clock or slave to an external clock. Very clean preamp.

 

[tom.boykin]

Pete,

Good choice to record sound separately. It'll make recording roomtone, wild tracks, and even just new setups much easier. I would suggest investing in a dedicated audio recorder. Even if it's just for this shoot, consider that:

1. Production equipment has higher resale value than computers and related hardware
2. A field recorder will provide you with HARD copies of sound, not just 1's and 0's floating around
3. You won't be as tied to AC power for your shoot
4. Depending on how your cart is setup you'll have less setup/teardown time with a field recorder
5. It just feels better to have buttons, pots, and faders to touch than a mouse and keyboard.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Kevin Wild]

If it's as low budget as I'm thinking, by virtue of not having a pro mixer or recorder, don't be afraid to go into the camera. The on-camera audio is fine. We do mostly interview-based corporate work with our RED (so far...films soon), and always record to camera and it sounds great. We do use a Sound Devices 302 mixer. I would recommend a mixer, even if you are going to record to RED. It saves a lot of time syncing audio, too, if you record to camera on a low budget shoot.

With a real budget, ignore everything I just said.

 

[David W. Jones]

On a low budget feature like this, I would recommend using BoomRecorder rather than Logic Pro on the laptop. As suggested, a low cost FW audio interface from MOTU would allow you to direct record each channel into your laptop, as well as route a 2 channel mix to your camera.
Good Luck!

 

[Noah Kadner]

I'd suggest seeing if you have a little more money for a sound person with their own gear. Sure you can go into the camera, sure you can go into a laptop but that's a major compromise. What's the point of shooting your feature in nice 4K resolution if you wind up with iffy sound because you had you attention divided. Ever seen a successful movie in the theater with less than perfect sound? Me neither...

Noah

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

sound is 50% footage is 50% of the movie.. I would rather skimp on camera than sound quality

 

[M Most]

Ever seen a successful movie in the theater with less than perfect sound? Me neither...

That's because 90% of motion picture sound is a creation of post production. Production sound makes up a very small part of the final mix. On many pictures, much of the on camera dialogue is looped as well.

I'm not minimizing the usefulness of good production sound, I'm just pointing out that "perfect sound" on a final mix of a motion picture doesn't exist because the production dialogue was recorded well, it exists because post production did their job.

 

[Morten Eriksen]

I would recommend using a fieldrecorder of some sort for stability reasons. I've been using Logic in my studio for many years and it has from time to time som hickups that makes it stop in the middle of a recording. While this is no big deal in a studio it might make you loose that great performance on set that you can't redo.

 

[Karl Lohninger]

That's because 90% of motion picture sound is a creation of post production. Production sound makes up a very small part of the final mix. On many pictures, much of the on camera dialogue is looped as well.

I'm not minimizing the usefulness of good production sound, I'm just pointing out that "perfect sound" on a final mix of a motion picture doesn't exist because the production dialogue was recorded well, it exists because post production did their job.

... you work in post, right ;-)

If you include all the (mostly gooey and senseless) music poured in then maybe you're right. Totally looped dialog is the exception, you know that. Besides, you talk about 'Hollywood' or studio productions and RED cameras are usually not used on those productions. (Fanboys, relax. I know somebody used a RED somewhere). RED cameras are used on low budget productions and there is usually no money or time to 'replace' dialog, automatic or not. You better have as good production sound as it gets ;-)

 

[Brian Ferguson]

On a low budget feature like this, I would recommend using BoomRecorder rather than Logic Pro on the laptop. As suggested, a low cost FW audio interface from MOTU would allow you to direct record each channel into your laptop, as well as route a 2 channel mix to your camera.
Good Luck!

Boom Recorder is a great application but unfortunately it has been temporarily discontinued as it doesn't work with Snow Leopard 10.6.
http://jwsound.net/SMF/index.php?topic=4646.0

Take Vos the author is working on a new version with more features. If you have boom recorder already with a license don't upgrade your Mac OS or you will break it. It is no longer being sold. This program was used by the Soundman on Gamer, and I see it on a lot of sound mixer's list of gear on big productions. It was an affordable alternative to the more expensive Metcorder. http://www.gallery.co.uk/metacorder/intro.html

 

[Adil Lahoulou]

That's because 90% of motion picture sound is a creation of post production. Production sound makes up a very small part of the final mix. On many pictures, much of the on camera dialogue is looped as well.

I'm not minimizing the usefulness of good production sound, I'm just pointing out that "perfect sound" on a final mix of a motion picture doesn't exist because the production dialogue was recorded well, it exists because post production did their job.

....hence making it that much more important for low budget films to get the best possible field sound. The bar has been raised extremely high.

 

[Tom Visser]

Boom Recorder is a great application but unfortunately it has been temporarily discontinued as it doesn't work with Snow Leopard 10.6.
http://jwsound.net/SMF/index.php?topic=4646.0

Take Vos the author is working on a new version with more features. If you have boom recorder already with a license don't upgrade your Mac OS or you will break it. It is no longer being sold. This program was used by the Soundman on Gamer, and I see it on a lot of sound mixer's list of gear on big productions. It was an affordable alternative to the more expensive Metcorder. http://www.gallery.co.uk/metacorder/intro.html

If you contact Take directly, he will still sell it to you, but just wants to confirm that you are in fact not running SL. If you can get great sound from 1/4" analog tape (and you can), you can get great sound on Logic, PT, Cubase, Ableton Live, or whatever other medium you wish to use. Field recorders make it all much easier and more reliable (and no computer fan noise), but if you have the aptitude and willingness to learn, you can make it work. Boom Recorder (and Metacorder) are THE best pieces of software to record on a computer, if you insist or are forced to go that route, due to lack of funds.

If this is just you and some friends messing around, trying to learn your equipment and craft, knock yourself out and do whatever you want. If this is a more serious endeavor, I agree with the call to hire a sound professional who will bring his own equipment and more importantly, his expertise.

 

[Rob Castiglione]

My view is that I dont think that you should consider using a computer to record location sound. It is just not sufficiently stable and too much might go wrong. You need a dedicated device such as the sound devices line of recorders which have simple and reliable set up and recording procedure (and cf card back up).

I should note that I have done both often. For computer I have used the excellent metric halo firewire device (ULN -2) - just awesome once you know what you are doing with it. I now use this only for music recording. That device has outstanding preamps so it is worth the effort.

 

[Neil Uchitel]

A relatively low cost external solution would be to run a mic into a Sound Devices MixPre, which would feed a Sony PCM-D50. I do this all the time for SFX gathering. You won't get TC (which means you'll have to use a slate), but the quality is excellent (up to 96k 24b - but all you need for dialog is 48/24). As long as your mic is good (Schoeps MK41, or Senn MKH8050), you'll have no problem. Tethering to a laptop is a serious pain on so many levels. It's always good to have a backup and so if you want to digitally come out of the D-50 and also run into a laptop, then that's an option.

 

[Nathan Rightnour]

Hello,
I am shooting a low budget feature and I am very interested in capturing as good of sound as possible. As I understand it there are a couple of routes I can go; straight into the red, through a field recorder, or straight into my laptop with Logic Pro. I like the idea of going straight into the laptop due to not having to spend as much, thought I would still have to buy an audio interface. It seems to me like the field recorder is quite an expensive route and that going straight into the red you don't have the same flexibility.

My main question is if by going straight into Logic if you're going to get as good of sound and if you're going to run in to problems syncing it up. Which route is best?

Thanks for your time

Pete

this question cannot be answered until we know what mic you'd be using to record into Logic. are you using the built-in mic on your laptop? in that case, you won't need an additional interface because you aren't using an external mic.

logic only acts as the digital tape machine, it is capable of the highest recording quality and is often used for ADR sessions. its the MIC that makes the difference. for lo/no budget productions, the internal macbook mics are decent at recording vocals and high freqs, NOT bass or low-frequency material. if you have a good mix engineer you can pull it off audible dialogue as long as there isnt a ton of SFX and music happening at the same time.

hope that helps, good luck!

Nathan
nathanrightnour.com

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

this question cannot be answered until we know what mic you'd be using to record into Logic. are you using the built-in mic on your laptop? in that case, you won't need an additional interface because you aren't using an external mic.
Nathan
nathanrightnour.com

Never thought of gripping a MacBook on a boom.

Hans

 

[Andrae Palmer]

are you using the built-in mic on your laptop? in that case, you won't need an additional interface because you aren't using an external mic.

LOL... I sure hope that wasn't a serious question.

 

[Tom Visser]

Hey with two iPhones you can make a pretty nice wireless microphone system. With 8 iPhones, you could use all 4 inputs on your RED (envisioning the first Indy shoot using all Apple audio hardware).

All jokes aside, it really depends on your budget. If you can't afford a decent microphone, don't blow money on other hardware. Also, do you have someone who knows audio in your crew? A million dollars in audio gear in the hands of a PA is not going to sound as good as a run of the mill kit hired out from an established location mixer / boom op.

Regarding the post / location debate, it is a team effort. It comes down to money, if you want to recreate everything in post, it is going to cost you. If your location mixer is holding the roll every shot because of poor scouting or he is too anal, then obviously going ahead with compromised location tracks is worth it because if the economies involved. There are many features out there with mostly location sound, with simple broadband noise reduction and some surgical audio RX. Some features are nearly 100% looped. It depends on the budgets and philosophies of the film makers, and the type of film being made.

 

[Tom Visser]

Oh oh oh, I forgot about the iPhone conferencing ability, you could actually get a whole lot of channels into the mix with just n + 1 iPhones.