Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Live Broadcast With RED?

R

Robert Guthrie

Banned
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
229
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
43
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I know this may seem like a stupid question, but I admittedly know nothing about broadcast.

I have someone wanting to hire me with my RED to do a weekly live show. Is this even possible with the RED? How would I go about doing this if it is? Is there any specific gear I would need to get in addition to my normal filming setup?
 
My first instinct would be to ask what kind of lenses they're using. There may be value in picking up the PL to B4 adapter, as many popular broadcast lenses use the B4 standard.

I'm not in front of my camera right now, so the big question mark left with me is whether or not there's a way to push either straight 1080i or 720p out one of the HD-SDI spigots (without any lookaround or frame guides - just clean video).

Also, should that prove to be possible, you'll have to advise the broadcaster that your camera is not capable of live remote shading. One of the benefits of using a Sony or Panasonic package in this application is the ability for a camera tech to sit in the production truck and shade the cameras live (by shading I mean WB, BB, gamma, knee, iris, and in a lot of cases, add in-camera filters such as ND). With the RED, the person at the camera will need to control those parameters.

I have a strong broadcast background, and I've also been thinking lately about the viability of using my shiny new RED toy as a broadcast camera.
 
This interests me too. There was a BBC report (about build 16 I think) that suggested the HDSDI out it was'nt up to it. I dont recall the reasons but would be like to know if this has ever been done and on what shows.
 
The RED was not designed to do this. The preview out of the camera is like a film tap. It always has the look around and may have on screen information if the EVF and LCD are not plugged in. I would recommend against this, it would be simpler and better to get a camera designed for live tv.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Banned
  • #5
I know the camera wasn't designed for it, thus my curiosity as to if it could be done.

The only lenses I have are my 18-50 and RPP's, so... Yeah. I was kind of thinking the same thing about the B4 adapter.

We would primarily be in studio from what I understand (I only have bare details now), so I think some of the on the fly editing may not be an issue, but I'm not sure. Even so, I think she's probably wanting a multi-camera setup without knowing that's what she wants.

I dunno. I do think I'm with Curtis on this one. I'd be better off with a couple F900, Varicam, HPX, etc for this sort of deal.
 
Live broadcast and Red is tough. We shoot a talk-back style live show using 4 cameras (2 Reds and 2 Canon XHG1s, which are locked off). It's not for live broadcast--all the editing is done in post. As others have commented, the HDSDI outputs are not made for deliverables--you ask is it possible? Sure, of course, you could, but you're defeating the purpose of shooting Red to do so. The only benefit I could see (and we looked into this) was 35mm DOF. And if your deliverable is TV anyway, and its a reality show, is 35mm DOF an important factor? It might be...

Gibby has written a great thread about live broadcast and Red, which you may find interesting: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32201

Best of luck with it all Robert.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Banned
  • #7
Thanks James! The only reason it's being seriously considered is because the hiring party is insistent on the RED because that's what we shot music videos on. She's...difficult, lol.
 
Well, after reading Gibby's post, it seems that the 720p clean HDSDI out is possible. I agree, after the years I spent in live broadcast, that using the RED in this respect will be harder than using any other EFP or studio camera specifically designed for the purpose, but after that post, it's possible.

I'd make sure to get house genlock provided to the camera, and once again remind the producers that there is no remote control over camera shading, so it'll be tough to match the 'look' of the RED to their existing cameras on set (if they've got any).

Once again, I agree that there are much easier solutions, but I'm excited to try it out now that I know it's possible.
 
In Gibby's post I did not see how they got around the look around. Was the image just cropped with a piece of hardware? or did they just live with it. As far as I know it is not possible to get rid of it and have a completely clean image out of the camera, but I have never had a need to do so.

Kyle, Robert, if these projects happen let us know your findings. I am curious to hear how it goes.
 
That would be great if was possible, we have a six camera OB Van looking for a HD upgrade, those SD DXC-D50 just can't help any longer and I don't feel like using 1/3" JVC HD250 neither have money for some Sony HDC-1500.

Needless to say the fortune we've invested on B4 lenses, even a 40X HD is in our inventory...
 
If you plug in an LCD and an EVF it gets rid of the screen info on the sdi connections. The camera can only export two on screen info signals and taking the LCD and EVF cleans all others. At least, I think that's how it works.

"The RED ONE, as of Build 15, offers all outputs enabled, supporting a RED EVF, RED LCD, (3) HD-SDI outputs and one HDMI output simultaneously, with two of these outputs supporting full GUI overlay graphics. Default for GUI (menus) is RED EVF and RED LCD. If either monitoring option is not present, GUI overlay is available to the HD-SDI or HDMI outputs. So, the GUI overlay can only be sent to two monitoring options at a time."
 
Last edited:
The typical workaround for the SDI spigot lookaround is a hardware scaler. The combination of the limitations of the fast debayer SDI video tap output plus the scaling might be a more of a quality hit than you can handle depending on expectations.

FWIW one of the expectations a lot of us have for the move to ASICs in the new cameras is that might get a scaled 1080P output from camera that would hold up for live use. I would assume the lookaround, various types of camera data on screen and so on will be selectable in menus on board.

For example: on a feature you are likely to want the Reel# and timecode for the Scripty, on a live IMag you will want it clean, etc.

For the moment, I would advise not trying to use the SDI video tap for live broadcast. If you do, a hardware scaler and shader would make sense as you could fix the lookaround issue and allow some color tweaking. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
 
Curtis Abbott said:
In Gibby's post I did not see how they got around the look around. Was the image just cropped with a piece of hardware? or did they just live with it. As far as I know it is not possible to get rid of it and have a completely clean image out of the camera, but I have never had a need to do so.
Click to expand...

Roger said:
If you plug in an LCD and an EVF it gets rid of the screen info on the sdi connections. The camera can only export two on screen info signals and taking the LCD and EVF cleans all others. At least, I think that's how it works.
Click to expand...

This is correct. Completely clean (free of frame guides) image.
 
Cail Young said:
Build 21 allows you to turn off the lookaround shading.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me where? I was looking for that today but could not find it. I'm able to turn off the frame guides but didn't find anything for the lookaround. And I also connected both my EVF and LCD and it did NOT get rid of the lookaround. Would like to know how, if possible. Thanks.

We did get rid of it by scaling it, but it would be best if I could simply turn it off.
 
Mark Phelan said:
Can you tell me where? I was looking for that today but could not find it. I'm able to turn off the frame guides but didn't find anything for the lookaround. And I also connected both my EVF and LCD and it did NOT get rid of the lookaround. Would like to know how, if possible. Thanks.

We did get rid of it by scaling it, but it would be best if I could simply turn it off.
Click to expand...

SYSTEM > MONITOR > FRAME GUIDE > CUSTOM > LOOKAROUND

Set OPACITY to 0%.
 
I just did a live broadcast with RED. We plugged in both LCD and EVF and had a clean image with no frame guides etc. It worked like a charm. We even had wireless HD transmission in between.

You'll fight with the focus pulling - so it's only if you really want the dof for a look that it's worth it. We also wanted the look that RED RAW gives.
 
Jamison Stark said:
SYSTEM > MONITOR > FRAME GUIDE > CUSTOM > LOOKAROUND

Set OPACITY to 0%.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that did the trick. I was in Build 21, but 21.0.0 and it did not have the custom setting option. After the upgrade and a black shade calibration, everything is fine.

One point of clarification, is it the consensus here that the lookaround as well as the frame guide should disappear when the LCD and EVF are connected? Is that unique to Build 21.4.1? It did not work this afternoon with the previous build is why I'm asking. Not an issue, just curious at this point.

Thanks again for the help!
 
How does the B4 adapter work? Surely as they are 2/3 in you will need to shoot 2k eliminating the majority of that shallow depth of field? Please correct me (as I am very likely to be wrong). Can you power lenses (for servo) with the red or is that seperate? Please do post the results as I am very intrigued!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top