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litepanels

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King Cheung

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Hi, everyone,
I am thinking to get some litepanels LED lighting products.
http://litepanels.com/
Any experience sharing? Any suggestion? How would you compare it to Kino Flo?
Thanks in advance.
 
NO COMPARISON. Kino-flos dominate in every category that matters: Kino flos have a vastly higher CRI (LEDs are quite low), are much softer, and, best of all, don't throw those horrible "1000 points of light" shadows. The only area where LEDs dominate Kinos are if you want a harder source (Kinos are always soft) and power consumption (LEDs are more efficient). There is a minor size advantage for LED lighting, as well, but if you are going for a soft look, then Kinos are much preferable. If you want a hard light, then buy a small HMI or go tungsten.

I tried LEDs, wanted to love them, but didn't like them at all.

Stephen
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
NO COMPARISON. Kino-flos dominate in every category that matters: Kino flos have a vastly higher CRI (LEDs are quite low), are much softer, and, best of all, don't throw those horrible "1000 points of light" shadows. The only area where LEDs dominate Kinos are if you want a harder source (Kinos are always soft) and power consumption (LEDs are more efficient). There is a minor size advantage for LED lighting, as well, but if you are going for a soft look, then Kinos are much preferable. If you want a hard light, then buy a small HMI or go tungsten.

I tried LEDs, wanted to love them, but didn't like them at all.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your quick response, Stephen.
It sounds very disappointing about Litepanels.
BTW, what is CRI?
Thanks.
 
I would say the exact opposite. I am fed up with the too soft light of the kinos, and I like what I get with the little PAR600 Led. I am just changing all my kinos for Led (the kinos will lit the green background of the set).
Have a look at Richard Website, you will find a lot of information about CRI, kinos and Led.


Olivier
 
King, CRI = Color Rendering Index. LEDs aren't quite at the level of tungsten, HMI and fluorescent yet in terms of maturity and color rendering although there are certainly ways that some are exploring to make them just as good. The CRI issue manifests itself as more green than normal in the light. Minus green filters can correct this and effectively raise the CRI to more than acceptable levels. Some feel Litepanels don't have as much "green" issue simply because they build the minus green into the LEDs themselves.

Olivier, thanks for your comments. I think you mean the LED 600 which is available in spot or flood:

http://www.coollights.biz/clled600-panel-p-114.html


LEDs may not be for everyone, but the LED 600 is easily our most popular product at the moment. We still sell other lighting products as well such as fluorescent, HMI and even tungsten, as I feel they all have their place. No one instrument will do it all. HMI and metal halide are great for shadow rendering. Fluorescent is a great soft diffused source and LEDs kind of fall between the two as another type of light. Not great shadow rendering but certainly a far better throw than fluorescents. But certainly when power may be an issue, such as filming on the street or in a cave, LEDs kind of beat the others out by a large margin. Their efficiency, size to output ration and native DC operation makes them so attractive in this kind of use that many times CRI may be overlooked because of the advantages they give. In any case, we provide correction filters with our LED products for those that want to improve the CRI.

Let me know if you have other questions.
 
No problem Albert. There was no change in the size of the LED 600 between the first generation (that you have) and the current ones. You can fit one behind the barndoors and more filters if you take the barndoors out.
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
I tried LEDs, wanted to love them, but didn't like them at all.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Stephen. Like every other DP & Gaffer, I have put together my favorite lighting package based upon my more than 20 years operating a lighting rental and production service company. For my package, I have picked lights that I feel offer both the highest output (lumens/watt) and the best production capability and have combined them with distribution technology I've developed that enhances the production capability of the new Honda Inverter Generators. As yet, I have not found a LED lighting fixture that warrants inclusion in my package. Trust me, I have looked at all of them and some still to come. Here are a few of my reasons why I prefer the Parabeam 400 fixtures over LED Panels and it has to do with more than just their spectral distribution.

In HD Digital Cinema, the quality of light is more critical than ever. In High Def every detail of “on-camera” talent is rendered clearly on the screen – even the imperfections. Where LED and traditional hard light sources can exaggerate textural details, it is my opinion that fluorescent soft light is better for lighting talent in High Def productions because it can subdue those same textures and render a more cosmetic appearance. Primarily for this reason, I prefer the Kino Flo Parabeam fixtures, over LED Panels and other light sources, to serve as a Key source. Here are a few other reasons as well.

What distinguishes the Parabeam fixtures from LED Panels and other fluorescent lights is their throw, power efficiency, and the innovative accessories Kino Flo makes available for the fixtures. Accessories include barndoors, a gel frame, a diffusion panel, and Honeycomb Louvers. These features enhance the production capabilities of the Parabeam fixtures and make them suitable to serve as a key, or even backlight, source where conventional fluorescent movie lights and LED light panels are not.

Both conventional fluorescent movie lights (Kino Flo’s included) and LED light panels have a very broad light output that is hard to control. These lights also tend to drop off rapidly which means that to serve as a Key source, the units need to be positioned close to the subject they are lighting. These characteristics make them best suited to serve as Key sources in documentary interview set ups where the Keys are typically positioned close to the interview subject. In that capacity conventional fluorescent lights and LED light panels (with heavy diffusion) can generate a wonderful soft light that wraps around the interview subject without wilting them. But, given these characteristics, conventional fluorescent movie lights and LED light panels have only limited applications as fill sources in dramatic set lighting.

The ParaBeam fixtures, on the other hand, have computer aided designed (CAD) parabolic reflectors that focus their light output where it is needed most for lighting dramatic scenes - at a medium distance – making them better suited as a Key source for HD Digital Cinema. If you compare the photometric tables of the Parabeam 400 and the Diva 400 (which uses the same four lamps), you will notice that at 16’ the Parabeam 400 puts out almost three times the light level (28FC) than the Diva 400 (10FC) even though they both use the same tubes. You can always diffuse a Parabeam to create a soft source, but nothing you do will make a Diva 400 or LED light panel punchier.

In fact, a Parabeam 400 generates as much light at 16’ as the 4’ 8-Tube Kino Flathead 80 fixture, yet uses less than a quarter of the power (2 Amps verses 9.2 Amps.) While the seven amp difference is not a major consideration when using house power, it can make a difference when your power is limited (coming from a portable generator) because you can use four Parabeam 400s for the same power as a 4’ – 8 Bank Kino Flathead 80. And unlike the ballasts of Kino Flo’s fixture that use the T12 tubes, the Parabeam ballasts also include filters to reduce the return of harmonic currents into the power stream and improve their power efficiency. This makes them an especially efficient fluorescent light source that is comparable to the power efficiency of LED light panels and suitable for battery operation. For instance a Parabeam 400 puts out more light than even Zylight’s new high output LED light panel yet draws just .2 Amps more power.

While the newest LED light panels (that use the higher output LEDs) approach the Parabeams in output, the Parabeam fixtures are more easily controlled – an essential requirement in a Key source. Parabeam fixtures are controlled by interchanging Kino Flos’ innovative Honeycomb Louvers. Louvers are available in 90, 60 and 45 degrees. Swapping louvers provides beam control similar to that of swapping lenses on an HMI Par. These features enhance the production capabilities of the Parabeam fixtures and make them suitable to serve as a Key or Backlight source where conventional fluorescent movie lights and LED light panels will spill all over the set.

Kino Flo Parabeam fixtures are ideal for filming with the Red One. Since the Red’s native color balance is 5000K, it looks best when the lighting package consists of 5500K sources. Kino Flo Parabeam fixtures are a cost effective alternative to HMIs because they can use 5500K tubes. They provide beam control similar to that of swapping lenses on an HMI by interchanging their honeycomb louvers. And, they are even more efficient sources than HMIs. When using 5500K tubes to light for the Red’s 5000K native color balance, you can warm the lights without losing output to CTO gels by simply mixing in 3200K tubes with the 5500k tubes. Given the light sensitivity of the Red Camera, the more focused light of the Parabeam 400s is all that is needed for a key light even at a distance.

The power that I save by using Parabeam 400s for key sources in my package, enables me to power more lights on the enhanced 7500W output of my modified Honda EU6500is generator. Using a 60A Full Power Transformer/Distro on my modified Honda EU6500is I am able to power a lighting package that consists of a 2.5kw, 1200, & 800 HMI Pars, a couple of Parabeam 400s and Parabeam 200s, and a Flat Head 80. Given the light sensitivity of the Red Camera this is all the light I need to light a large night exterior. (Use this link - http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html - for a detailed description of the benefits to using Kino Parabeam 400s on portable generators (the section on the Parabeams is about three quarters of the way through the article.)

Compared to LED fixtures, Kino Flo Parabeam fixtures are just as efficient but offer greater versatility. Able to interchange different color temperature tubes, and vary beam spread with their interchangeable honeycomb louvers, the Parabeam fixture can do what it takes four different LED Litepanel fixtures to accomplish – Spot and Flood in both 5500K and 3200K. Offering better light quality, output, beam control, and versatility, the Kino Flo ParaBeams make for a better key or back light for HD cinema production than just about any other light source. Not to mention that you can buy two Parabeam 400s for the asking price of a single LED light panel.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston
 
Apples and oranges. I can think of lots of things that Parabeam or any flo won't be good for. I can think of things the LED fixtures won't be good for too, but they both do have their uses.

Guy Bryan Holt said:
Not to mention that you can buy two Parabeam 400s for the asking price of a single LED light panel.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, what are you selling the Parabeam 400 for? B&H shows the cost of the Parabeam 400 as a bit over $2000.

You can get about 7 Cool Lights CL-255P (2x55w portable flo units) for the under cost of a Parabeam 400 and 4 Cool Lights CL-LED600 panels also for under the same cost. I'm beginning to think I'm underpaid!

But what does this kind of vague cost comparison prove in any case? There are so many other considerations in the choice of lighting. And saying that you need flos, just because we're using HD mediums now (and we need to flatter talent) ignores the many other uses of light in media productions of all kinds.

As I basically said in my last post in this thread, different tools for different jobs. If you tend to use only one type of light, then you aren't doing much varied lighting work and must be doing the same things over and over again with no change. The person that DOES do varied lighting work would probably not make a blanket statement like "Kino Flo parabeam is the best". Maybe the flo unit of any kind is better for one use and the LED panel for another. The fresnel or par still has some place too. Saying that a flo is superior really means that for your use, which doesn't change much, it is superior but for the next guy, who's doing things differently, it may not be.

I wouldn't seriously tell the customer, for example, who says he wants to go spelunking in a cave with his camera, and needs a battery operated light that he should take something that is 24.5 x 24 x 8 inches and weighs 24 lbs such as a Kino Flo Parabeam 400 which operates off AC voltage and draws about 220 watts. I wouldn't even recommend our own CL-455P flo unit which weighs only about 8 pounds, is about 23 x 10 x 4 1/2 inches, also operates off AC voltage and same wattage, in such an instance. And carrying around a Joker 200 par or a CDM 150 fresnel in a cave with battery/inverter/ballast doesn't seem much more fun. Much better to take a small 50w light that falls midway in output between a 2x55 and a 4x55 and is easily operated off relatively small batteries with no inverter necessary. Battery can even attach directly to the fixture for a very compact overall package. 10 x 10 x 4 inches and a bit over 2 lbs if you leave the barndoors off. The proposition should be easy to understand for anyone that wants as compact as possible and the highest economy in power usage.

Nor would I recommend a flo like that to the guy that says he wants to do a roving sidewalk interview with two people talking, camera and lighting guy in front of them walking at same speed.

Those AC operated flo units won't operate well on small batteries such as Vmount or AB mount types and you've got to take along an inverter. Nor does their bulk make it easy for a "human light stand" to hold the light while you walk along for the sake of convenience and purposeful aim of the light where its needed, from a good angle, without the terrible "on-camera" light look.

For green screen use, an LED flood unit would certainly work, but its hard to beat some fluorescents for that use. Lots of even, soft output for a very economical cost--from some manufacturers. I wouldn't use an hmi par there either. Way overkill.

For a horror movie, maybe you want a hard, dramatic look. Want to see pores or wrinkles. Details in a special makeup. Use a flo for that? Probably not.

I wouldn't want to use the Parabeam 200, Parabeam 400, CL-255P, CL-455P, CL-LED600, Litepanels 1x1, etc., to try and project a cucaloris on the wall. The fresnel or par is a much better instrument for that.

As far as output and efficiency goes of LEDs vs. Flo:

Parabeam 200 185 FC at 4 ft, 86 FC at 6 ft.
Parabeam 400 384 FC at 4 ft, 166 FC at 6 ft.
Cool Lights LED 600 Flood 176 FC at 4 ft, 74 FC at 6 ft.
Cool Lights LED 600 Spot 297 FC at 4 ft, 139 FC at 6 ft.

Parabeam 200 draws 110w -- > $1600 -- 16 lbs
Parabeam 400 draws 220w -- > $2000 -- 24 lbs
LED 600 draws 50w -- is $449 -- 4 lbs with barndoors

Flos need inverter and extremely high watt hour battery belt to operate off grid.

LED 600 operates directly off any DC voltage from 10V to 24V or has optional direct battery interface to AB or V mount. Can operate off a smallish 95WH pro camcorder bat for almost 1 1/2 hours.


In summary, I think you should let the particular job dictate the tools. LEDs may be behind a bit in CRI, but they beat the heck out of flos in terms of efficiency and power usage. While they will catch up in CRI eventually, and they will equal some HMIs in output, they will probably never totally beat the single point light source fresnel or par for some uses where shadows are most important. And there will still always be places we want to play with and emphasize shadows as we are, after all, painting with light. Trying to make a 2D medium look as 3D as possible.

Thus its doubtful we'll have one light that can be used in all the different ways we may use lights.
 
Funny, we sell & rent both LED fixtures including the Litepanels and Fluorescent units including the KinoFlos. I've DPed plenty of jobs with both. Each has its place. If you need low power consumption and a tiny footprint, then nothing beats the LED.
 
Richard and Mitch made good points here, and I like to add that I actually Love LED's, and beside the obvious point in their favor, especially in the current times, a very low foot print,means a lot, but when the output is right, the LED fixture can be softened in many ways, but the Fluorescence can't be hardened, soft light is soft light, but hard light can always be worked with, and I have done just so many times especially photographing High Fashion and glamour, were the skin tones need to be as good as possible.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Funny, we sell & rent both LED fixtures including the Litepanels and Fluorescent units including the KinoFlos. I've DPed plenty of jobs with both. Each has its place. If you need low power consumption and a tiny footprint, then nothing beats the LED.
Click to expand...

I’m not saying that LED light panels don’t have their use. They are ideal in some of the special applications Richard mentions. What I am saying is that for my basic lighting package that serves me well 95% of the time, I find the Kino Flo Parabeams to be the better value because they have a better CRI and are more versatile than the LED light panels I have worked with.

The photometrics that Richard cites are typical of LED light panels. Photometrics for LEDs are seldom given beyond a near distance (6ft in the case of Coolights’ website) because the levels drop off rapidly - making them more suitable as a fill source. And I would bet that none of the photometrics LED manufacturers provide include the transmission loss to the ½ minus green required to bring them up to a comparable CRI as a Kino Flo.

HD_PP_DemoCU.jpg

Two Shot of Night exterior scene lit with our HD P&P Pkg​

While the Parabeams are not for every application they do offer superior CRI, better throw, and are more easily controlled – making them more suitable as a Key source. And with their ability to interchange tubes, the Parabeams allow you to warm/cool the lights, by simply mixing in 3200K tubes with the 5500k tubes, without losing output to CTO/CTB gels the way you do correcting LED light panels.

HD_PP_DemoWS.jpg

Wide Shot of Night exterior scene lit with a pkg. consisting of PFC 2.5 & 1.2 HMI Pars, PFC 800w Joker HMI, Kino Flo Flat Head 80, 2 ParaBeam 400s, and a ParaBeam 200 powered by a modified Honda EU6500is.​

I think the Parabeam 400 fixtures are a better value for general applications because one Parabeam 400 can do what it takes four different LED light panel fixtures to accomplish – Spot and Flood in both 5500K and 3200K. And where we sell the Parabeam 400 for about $1650 it costs less than the four LED light panels required to get the same versatility. Finally, with power factor correction built into their ballasts they are nearly as power efficient as the universal LEDs and do not kick harmonics back into the power stream which make them an ideal light to use on small portable generators like our modified Honda EU6500is.

HD_PP_Demo_SetUp_Night.jpg

Note Distance at which the two ParaBeam 400s are serving as Keys.​


I readily concede that LED light panels make for better on-camera obie lights and a 200W HMI pocket par is better for the guy who “wants to do a roving sidewalk interview with two people talking, camera and lighting guy in front of them walking at same speed” because nothing less will serve for daylight fill in that situation in my estimation. My point is that the Kino Flo Parabeams will serve you better the other 95% of the time.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston
 
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Mitch Gross said:
Funny, we sell & rent both LED fixtures including the Litepanels and Fluorescent units including the KinoFlos. I've DPed plenty of jobs with both. Each has its place. If you need low power consumption and a tiny footprint, then nothing beats the LED.
Click to expand...

thanks, Mitch. What do you mean tiny footprint? Do you mean not too much "lit feeling?"
Thanks.
 
King Cheung said:
thanks, Mitch. What do you mean tiny footprint? Do you mean not too much "lit feeling?"
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Just mean that a Litepanel 1x1 is physically small so it can be squeezed into tight spaces. In practical locations that can sometimes be a real issue.
 
The Litepanels are great. I used them in the opening scene of my short film that I just shot. Also used them in a flashback scene. They can be found on my site under the portfolio section:

http://www.captovideoconcepts.com/portfolio.html
Watch PRESSURE (thats the short film)

They are very easy to use, very bright and can be gelled with diffusion and other filters. Plus they are light and can easily be "hollywooded" by a crew member should you need to improvise at the last moment.
 
I own 1x1 litepanels and also their smaller fixtures as well. They are very handy for portable fast moving set ups, especially on locations with no AC power source. I.e. you are in the woods in the middle of now where. However for more controlled longer set ups with soft light I prefer to use kino. The color in my opinion is more neutral and instantly matchable with other sources.

However I am referring to the older lite panels here, not the newer color controllable versions, which I haven't used on a shoot yet, and may be better in adjusting to match other sources.

I have noticed a green hue in some situations on red footage I have shot with litepanels. Required gelling in mixed light source set ups.

In case this sounds negative towards litepanels. I love them for quickly providing a good light when the shots are coming fast one after another.
 
jchema said:
The Litepanels are great. I used them in the opening scene of my short film that I just shot. Also used them in a flashback scene. They can be found on my site under the portfolio section:

http://www.captovideoconcepts.com/portfolio.html
Watch PRESSURE (thats the short film)

They are very easy to use, very bright and can be gelled with diffusion and other filters. Plus they are light and can easily be "hollywooded" by a crew member should you need to improvise at the last moment.
Click to expand...

Hi, jchema, I just watched your Pressure. Were you using RED 1 to film? If so, what kind of lens did you use?
Also, in the middle part, in the kitchen, it looks yellowish, kind of special. What kind of lightbulb did you use?
It must be very difficult for you to turn the focus by yourself all the time. Anyway, nice handheld work, particularly, if it is R1.
Thanks.
 
Thanks, Stephen, Richard and Guy. All of your experience and explanations gave me a very good knowledge about LED and Flo now.
Thank you very much again.
 
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