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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

lens selection for tv series

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kevin N

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i am considering the red one or possibly the scarlet 2/3 or s35 for a tv series originally shot on a varicam at 1080i with a canon 5.5-50 and canon 7-110 zoom. i figure shooting at 4k is a waste of time since this show will never be projected on the big screen and the lenses are much bigger to get the range i would need. this lead me to the idea that 2k with a s16 zoom or b4 mount hd cine zoom would be perfect. any suggestions for lens? any comparisons of canon, cooke, zeiss, fuji or angenieux zooms? prices? also, i would be probably want a short and long zoom compliment each other. thanks!!
 
might be worth investigating s16mm lenses like the canon 6.6-66 (and its predecessor the 8-64), 11.5 -138, 11-165 and 10.5-180.

Angenieux also do a good wide zoom - 8-64 I think. the 11.5-138 is a bit heavy and not as good as the wide possibly.

Check to see if they cover a cropped sensor- They should

james
 
The Varicam can't shoot interlaced, only 720P. Unless you're talking about the new 3700, which can record to 1080i using P2 cards.

If you are shooting for broadcast HDTV, I recommend shooting 4K HD mode (3840 x 2160), which makes a very good conversion to 1080P RGB, from which you can make the 1080i/720P broadcast masters.

Remember you are shooting with a RAW camera so it has to generate color from a Bayer-filtered sensor, so 2K RAW in theory isn't quite 1080P resolution, though it may be acceptable for some shots, especially slow-motion ones. But if you are trying to compete in terms of image quality with TV shows shooting 35mm transferred to HD, or with shows shot on 1080P cameras like the Genesis, F23, F35, etc. then I suggest you shoot 4K for the bulk of the show.

Or at least shoot some tests of 2K in lots of situations and do the conversion to HD and watch it at an HD post house to make sure the quality is acceptable. Although you did say the original was shot on the Varicam, which is only 720P, so maybe 2K RAW to 1080P/i would be in the same ballpark. My experience with 2K on the RED is that it 'feels' like a blow-up, somewhat softer and noisier. Which is fine for some shots, but for large amounts of material that will have to go through a color-correction phase, I'd prefer working with higher-quality originals.

But I guess it also depends on the show and the level of HD picture quality they need/want.

Now the test footage I believe was posted (as a still frame) by RED of the 3K 2/3" Scarlet looked quite excellent, it seemed much better than 2K on the RED ONE. So if you're hoping to use 2/3" / Super-16 optics, then perhaps this is the camera you should be looking at.
 
The upcoming "FF1080p" recording modes of the Scarlet and EPIC (and possibly RED ONE) may also be viable solutions. This would mean the Camera is doing onboard scaling to provide an RGB 1080p option, rather than RAW.
 
kevlar said:
i figure shooting at 4k is a waste of time since this show will never be projected on the big screen and the lenses are much bigger to get the range i would need.
Click to expand...

This seems to be the single biggest misconception when shooting with Red, I hear it every day.
The truth is just because you are shooting 4K on the Red One does not necessarily mean you will ever edit in 4K. I have shoot many dozens of commercials with the Red all at 4K...but not once have I ever edited the footage at 4K.

The only reason to consider shooting at 2K or 3K is frame rates...if you need 120fps, shoot 2k. If you are shooting mostly 24fps, shoot 4K and edit at the resolution that works for your project.
 
Kevlar,

As David has said, for high quality HDTV work with RED One, 4KHD is especially good. If acquisition frame rates above 30 fps are not needed, and high quality HDTV is the objective, then shoot 4kHD, which, when down-rezzed to 1080 has a wonderful, over-saturated presentation.

But if frame rates higher than 30 fps are needed for the HDTV content, IMO the best option is to shoot 3k 16:9. Using Graeme Nattress' debayer factor for R3D files of .78, a RED 3k file debayers out to 2.34k. 1080p is 6% smaller than 2k, and 1080i and 720p are obviously much smaller than 1880p in temporal resolution - thus a 3k debayer that comes out to around 2.34k is excellent for HDTV use, and will down-rez to 1080 or 720 very nicely.

Our well shot and color corrected RED 3k footage has cut seamlessly with our 4kHD footage. When intercut with RED 4kHD footage, RED 2k footage doesn't do nearly as well as RED 3k footage.

An entire HDTV program acquired in well shot RED 3k, processed correctly, edited, and mastered out to HDCAM SR looks excellent.

With RED One, shooting 3k eliminates your ability to use S16mm and B4 2/3" lenses. We've been using a lot of 35mm stills lenses to shoot HDTV programs in 3k and 4k HD with RED One - with excellent results - especially for non-narrative genres of production. If high mobility in your production is a requirement, then you should consider using 35mm stills zooms, without a matte box, using screw on filters, and no follow focus - and simply eye focus racking the lens barrel. There are some surprisingly good 35mm stills zooms out there that aren't real big/heavy, but give you a good range of focal lengths for HDTV production.

In 3k, depth of field tends to be deeper than 4k (there are variables), but it is still generally more shallow than shooting 1080p or 2k. Plus if you need wide shots for your show, per lens, the field of view will be wide at 4kHD, still pretty wide at 3k, then narrower at 2k.

Yes, Scarlet 3k should be excellent for HDTV programs - I know we'll be putting our Scarlet's to use extensively on HDTV programs.

You didn't say what genre of HDTV program you're working on, but in general I think my input above, along with David's, and the others in this thread, will help you out. If your series is narrative, then a lot of the info above still applies, but you'll probably need to go to s35 cine lenses and heavier rigs with MB, FF, etc. - but IMO with RED One, 4kHD and 3k should still be your acquisition resolutions for almost all HDTV finishes.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
The Varicam can't shoot interlaced, only 720P. Unless you're talking about the new 3700, which can record to 1080i using P2 cards.

If you are shooting for broadcast HDTV, I recommend shooting 4K HD mode (3840 x 2160), which makes a very good conversion to 1080P RGB, from which you can make the 1080i/720P broadcast masters.

Remember you are shooting with a RAW camera so it has to generate color from a Bayer-filtered sensor, so 2K RAW in theory isn't quite 1080P resolution, though it may be acceptable for some shots, especially slow-motion ones. But if you are trying to compete in terms of image quality with TV shows shooting 35mm transferred to HD, or with shows shot on 1080P cameras like the Genesis, F23, F35, etc. then I suggest you shoot 4K for the bulk of the show.

Or at least shoot some tests of 2K in lots of situations and do the conversion to HD and watch it at an HD post house to make sure the quality is acceptable. Although you did say the original was shot on the Varicam, which is only 720P, so maybe 2K RAW to 1080P/i would be in the same ballpark. My experience with 2K on the RED is that it 'feels' like a blow-up, somewhat softer and noisier. Which is fine for some shots, but for large amounts of material that will have to go through a color-correction phase, I'd prefer working with higher-quality originals.

But I guess it also depends on the show and the level of HD picture quality they need/want.

Now the test footage I believe was posted (as a still frame) by RED of the 3K 2/3" Scarlet looked quite excellent, it seemed much better than 2K on the RED ONE. So if you're hoping to use 2/3" / Super-16 optics, then perhaps this is the camera you should be looking at.
Click to expand...
david you have made some great points. yes the original series was shot on a varicam 720p (upconverted in camera to 1080i.) with b4 mount canon zooms. high frame rates are not an issue since any slo mo is done in post. the advantages of staying with b4 mount lenses is the size and range of a 2/3 mount zoom (we do handheld with the zooms) and the practicality of a little more depth of field if we go 2k. we tend to shoot between T2.5-4 (the majority around 2.8.) my feeling was 2k would give us a step up from 720p and allow us to keep using smaller zooms. (primes are not an option for this production, a lot of the time we need the same lens) as i will own the whole package i would like to be flexible to shoot for the big screen. going 4k would create issues for focus on such a quick moving drama as well as issues with the size of the zooms for hand held. this is why i am so curious about which lenses will be suitable for a 2/3 or s35 3k set up with the scarlet.
i see the main problems as follows;
b4 zooms = no 4k on red one
3k? which lenses are usable???
35mm cine zooms are huge = no handheld
primes? = 2 sets = big bucks
very shallow depth of field; this isn't a big feature = 2 pages a day

scarlet 2/3 or s35
seems like a great compromise but when is it coming out???
which lenses would work for the s35 chip??
 
No one said it was a perfect world...

There are lightweight handholdable zooms for 35mm cine, they just don't have the focal length range of the ENG zooms.

You're just going to have to make a judgement call as to whether you can live with the image quality of shooting 2K RAW for everything just to be able to use your ENG zooms. This is why you should shoot some tests and take them to a post house and look at them on a broadcast reference HD monitor.

It's basically an issue of image quality -- how good does the HD photography have to be? Are you trying to compete with something shot on a 1080P F23 or just a 720P Varicam? If you are trying to match the quality of the original Varicam show, then compare your 2K-to-HD tests to that.
 
agreed. as far as lenses go has anyone used the canon cine zooms with the red one? eg has anyone shot 2k with the digi zooms, newer canon cine zooms or the ang s16 zoom? how do all these lenses compare? any suggestions on best place to buy?
 
Kevlar,

There are very few people on RED User who have ever used a B4 2/3" zoom on RED One. I'm one of the ones who has - and I've used them a fair amount on RED One. There is a complete forum here on RED User that has threads full of info on the questions you're asking - the EFP/ENG for RED forum. A quick search there will find you about anything you need to know about shooting EFP style with RED One, lens options, accessories. Link: http://205.234.135.241/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

Beyond that, the Search tool here on RED User will help you a lot too.

To shoot 2k with B4 lenses on RED One you'll need the RED B4 to PL adaptor - available on the RED web site. It spreads the 1080 image the 6% necessary so that B4 HD lenses can cover the 2k frame.

If you have to shoot 2k with B4 HD zooms, then well shot 2k footage using the RED B4 adaptor and a high quality HD zoom will finish OK for 720p, and OK for some 1080i finishes - just softer than footage shot with s35mm or 35mm stills lenses in 4k, 3k, or even 2k. The RED B4 adaptor has good glass in it, but the extra glass will necessarily soften the image somewhat.

I've attached a couple of pics of some of my RED cameras in B4/2k acquisition setups. The shoulder held pic is my RED #8 in 2007, with my RED B4 adaptor and a Fujinon 16x. The other two pics are recent (March 2009) pics at Bexel Burbank with my RED "London" camera using my RED B4 adaptor and a Fujinon 22x.

Again, you can find the answers to all the questions you're asking by visiting the EFP/ENG for RED forum here on RED User. The Scarlet forum has the answers to your Scarlet questions.

I gave you some lens ideas (35mm stills lenses) for mobile EFP shooting of 3k in my Post #6 of this thread.
 
The best, and lowest cost, compromise may be 2/3" Scarlet at 3k with either B4 or 16mm lenses. B4 and s16 lenses won't cover 3k on the larger formats.
This is one reason I promote adoption of the micro 4/3rds standard, at least as a mount option for S35/ff35, as it will cover 3k on the larger sensors, but still maintains compact optics. Unfortunately it is a very young format and the only good optics available are still camera lenses like the Olympus Elite series and a couple of offerings from Leica/Panasonic. This may change in a year or so however.
 
well i am still considering the varicam 2700 or 3700 or the new sony xdcam f800 all of which shoot 1080 but the coming of the scarlet has really peaked my interest in going the Red camera route. in the tv series world stills lenses could not even be considered. i won't be using eng lenses since we have focus pullers. i didn't realize an adaptor was necessary. i understand why people shy away from the b4 option. i will check out the ang rouge zooms. maybe 3k with pl mount lenses would be a nice compromise and more versatile.
 
David Rasberry said:
The best, and lowest cost, compromise may be 2/3" Scarlet at 3k with either B4 or 16mm lenses. B4 and s16 lenses won't cover 3k on the larger formats.
This is one reason I promote adoption of the micro 4/3rds standard, at least as a mount option for S35/ff35, as it will cover 3k on the larger sensors, but still maintains compact optics. Unfortunately it is a very young format and the only good optics available are still camera lenses like the Olympus Elite series and a couple of offerings from Leica/Panasonic. This may change in a year or so however.
Click to expand...

you hit the nail on the head david. i am used to 35mm pl mount or pv mount of panavision. now that i am just beginning to shoot as a dp i want to stay as flexible as possible. the scarlet 2/3 3k might be a great solution for tv, docs and low budget features.
 
kevlar said:
in the tv series world stills lenses could not even be considered.
Click to expand...

That's a wide sweeping and very inaccurate statement. For TV series work that's in narrative genres, is hardlined EFP, and/or is union, its a generally accurate statement. But there is a vast array of non-hardlined EFP style TV series and one off programs produced using mobile, small crews, who are eye focusing (not using focus pullers), are free to use whatever lens setup they want/need to get their images, and regularly use 35mm stills lenses on RED One. These genres of TV series and programs include non-hardlined EFP production of documentaries, lifestyle, sports, wildlife, music, nature, travel, and on and on.

How do I know this? Non-hardlined EFP style and hybrid style production of cable and broadcast network television programs is my specialty, and me, my crews, and many associate companies work widely producing, directing, and shooting television programs using RED One - and have done so for the past 21 months since I took delivery of my three RED cameras back in August 2007. We use a full array of Nikon lenses, and some Canon lenses on our RED cameras for our television work - and rarely use s35mm PL lenses.

I realize you're new here to RED User. You started a thread asking which lenses were good to use on RED for a TV series. I've taken the time to give you two very detailed posts with answers to your questions to help you out - with no acknowledgment from you. I'm one of the guys here with the very most real world RED camera TV program experience. If you listen to the answers from guys who use RED extensively for TV, you'll have the most accurate info you can get here for your thread-opening question.
 
ahhh sorry steve if i offended anyone. actually i found all of the responses very informative. the show i am referring to is drama and union work with a full crew. 1st cam, 2nd cam and trainee with operator and dp. union tv dramas are being shot on 35mm, 16mm, full chip to 2/3 chip video but always with either cine primes or cine zooms. we also use 4x5.6 filters as well. in this case the "old" varicam would be the lowest possible choice body wise with a b4 mount cinezoom. i would love to raise the quality of the image but my experience tells me once you go for 35mm zooms you need to cover yourself for handheld. that means more lenses. (you can't go hh with a optimo 24-290 ;) ) the show is being renewed and i would like to purchase a full package that i will be able to possibly shoot dramas and docs with later. i guess my feeling is 4k requires to big of commitment lens wise. i guess i am looking at the scarlet or red one as a great alternative to the new varicam or f800
 
No worries Kevlar...

With that additional info you've supplied I now understand your situation better. Based on your description, right now, before Scarlet ships, a 2/3" camera system like a Varicam, F900, etc., with a cine zoom may be your best camera choice - until Scarlet ships.

For RED One cine style shooting, there are some good wide to mid focal length zooms available, including the RED 18-85, the Optimo Rouge zooms Evin mentioned, and a few others. Very few of those lenses are of the size/weight necessary for shoulder held shooting though. There have been several threads here over the past months discussing the need for smaller in size, but longer in focal length s35 cine zooms to use on cameras like RED, and possibly rehousing smaller size 35mm stills zooms into being cine zooms. That has already begun to happen with wide 35mm stills zooms like the Nikon 14-24, and others, but no longer focal length zooms.

Most of the long focal length zooms in the cine world are former 35mm stills lenses re-housed for cine use - mostly a lot of Nikon lenses and some Canon lenses. At some point in the future I'd guess that some entity will produce a s35mm or 35mm cine lens based off from 35mm stills technology that is not too giant to shoulder hold, has a long focal length range, and has the option for the operability of current B4 2/3" zooms, including the option to attach/detach a powered servozoom unit. The demand for such is here - but such a lens isn't made yet.

Our solution for covering 4k (and 5k to come) with RED One (and Epic to come) for small crew, non-union work has been to adapt 35mm stills lenses to RED One so we can shoot in 4k and 3k. There are obvious workarounds and nuances of use of the cameras and lenses - but we're free to experiment in our workplace.

Back to your dilemma: Once Scarlet ships, IMO it will be another serious option for field acquisition in certain styles of EFP production and cine style production - including all the models of Scarlet, from the fixed lens version for mobile docs, guerilla TV, and POV work, to the various interchangeable lens models of Scarlet for mid to higher end work. The modular concept behind Scarlet, and the wide range of lens types and accessories, should allow some models of Scarlet to be used for just about any level and style of production - from features down to small indie productions. In the hands of a pro, Scarlet will be a true pro tool.

Sorry If I sounded a little perturbed before. Because of a busy work schedule I don't have as much time to spend here answering questions as I used to. When I do take the time to help someone out its just because I like to do so - I think its good Karma.

Hope this added insight helps you understand the options...
 
It's good that you finally described the type of TV show you are shooting, would have made answering your question easier...

As I said, there are handholdable 35mm cine zooms, they just are on the short side, focal-length-wise. But generally you wouldn't go super telephoto on a handheld shot anyway.

You could get away with just two 35mm cine zooms for a TV show like that, one short and lightweight for handheld work and one with a long range when you are on a tripod head.

For example, there is the Optimo Rouge 16-42mm:
http://www.angenieux.com/index.php?rub=42&art=158

There is a 17-35mm Century zoom, discussed here:
http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/SteadicamZoom.htm
And according to Schneider's website, it costs $0.00!
http://www.schneideroptics.com/Ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=1100&IID=1218

There is a Cooke 15-40mm:
http://www.cookeoptics.com/cooke.nsf/products/cxx.html
 
again my mistake not telling you guys that it is strictly drama. it won't be going again until the late fall so the scarlet is still a great option. i was looking at the optimo rouge 16-42mm and 30-80mm. at 3k what would be the magnification factor approx 1.5? 24-63 and 45-120 in a 35mm lens? yah, the new varicam 3700 or sony f800 look solid but they are 50k. if i am going to pay that kind of cash i think i would be better off trying to get them to go 4k and ploughing more cash into the lens side of things. by the way, you guys have been great. to your point about using 2 zooms, a short and long david, that's exactly what we did 1st season. canon short and long zoom b4 mount. they were not the latest versions, so they were ok, the main issues were the focus marking were almost nonexistent and the lenses breathed a lot.
 
Well, if you had those Optimo lenses, you could use 4K HD (3.8K). But I'd guess that logically 3K is 3/4 of 4K... so a 1.3X magnification factor. I mean, in 3K, a 16-42mm zoom is still a 16-42mm zoom, but would "behave" or have the FOV like a 21-56mm in 4K. Assuming my guess about the 1.3X magnification factor is right.
 
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