Lens for Shooting Birds in Flight?

[Elsie N]

Hi there,

While shooting birds in flight on a current production we initially rented a Sigma 300-800 (which required renting an O'Connor tripod), shooting at 3K/48fps on the Scarlet. I was not happy with the results, primarily due to the frame rate limitations (looked into Twixtor to rectify this but wasn't convinced) and now am planning to re-shoot - possibly renting an Epic to shoot 4K/120fps.

I found that shooting around 800mm at 3K was about right in terms of framing (in fact it could be slightly less), so I am wondering what lens would be sufficient for 4K on the Epic?

While I can just about budget renting an Epic for a day, it will be very difficult to rent the O'Connor tripod+ insurance again in addition to this. I am wondering then what lens could produce sharp results at around 400/600mm that could be used with a relatively lightweight tripod (at least one that doesn't require insurance)?

This impressive clip was shot with a Canon 100-400mm with 2x extender on the RED One, but when we used the same combination on the Scarlet the results were unusable due to lack of sharpness (on close subjects the lens was quite sharp when fully zoomed, but the birds in the air were blurry - heat distortion in the air or backfocus problem maybe?). Perhaps though the 2x extender will work fine on the Epic as it did here on the RED One?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7bVxLCu0fg

I should point out that the location will be hot (approx 65-85 °F) so I am also concerned that there will be problems with heat distortion in the air particularly as the location is now hotter than before.

Alternatively I could just shoot with the Scarlet at 1K although I doubt this will really be adequate for a production partially intended for theatrical exhibition? The shot itself will only last about 10 seconds in the edit but is possibly the most important in the film.

For the Epic route I am considering using the following and would be very interested to hear of any thoughts or suggestions on what would work best and be sharpest at around 400/600mm:
Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 (with or without) 2x Extender
Canon 200-400mm f/4L with 1.4x Extender
Sigma 50-500mm f/4.5-6.3

Thanks!

The following suggestion is based on my knowledge of and usage of Premiere Pro in Adobe CC. If you have some footage on hand that you've already shot, use it to experiment with on a Premiere timeline. That is, reduce your already slo mo footage by using the speed function in PP. (Right click on the clip in the timeline you want to change the speed of.) This gives you an idea if you can meet your speed target.

I think the 2 things to consider are final output and slow-mo? If you want really slow motion to highlight the flying, you'll need to push the frame rates. If your final output is 1080P or 2k, you can shoot 4k or 5k and push in during the edit.

I like the notion of shooting at highest resolution while recording and then cropping or scaling in edit. If you can rent a Dragon, shoot at 6k, best resolution allowed (I would even shoot at 48 fps timebase, 360 degree shutter to get the best recording of movement before adjusting in edit) and utilize ADD to get the primo debayer for your 10 seconds of use in the final.


EDIT: Not sure if this is the case with the RED Canon mount, but using my RED Nikon mount with a trebler on a 28-300 Nikon G zoom lens takes away your ability to change the f-stop. With that setup, I was locked in to whatever f-stop it defaulted to and the image was much darker than it should have been.

With manual lenses or a non-electronic mount this should not be a problem.

 

[Peter Majtan]

EDIT: Not sure if this is the case with the RED Canon mount, but using my RED Nikon mount with a trebler on a 28-300 Nikon G zoom lens takes away your ability to change the f-stop. With that setup, I was locked in to whatever f-stop it defaulted to and the image was much darker than it should have been.

With manual lenses or a non-electronic mount this should not be a problem.

The RED's Canon mount is fully electronic and can actually do more things then even Canon's own mounts do... ;o)

 

[Elsie N]

The RED's Canon mount is fully electronic and can actually do more things then even Canon's own mounts do... ;o)

Peter, No experience with the RED canon mount... only the RED Nikon mount. But my problem was the trebler had no electronic connections and being between the Nikon G lens and the RED Nikon mount meant the lens had no way of being controlled, other than for manual zoom and focus. I think the trebler (or non-electronic doubler or 1.4x) would work the same on Canon mount?

 

[Peter Majtan]

The Canon's mk.III extenders (both 1.4x and 2x) are electronic and allow full control over aperture and even autofocus (as long as you keep f/8 or wider aperture). I don't know of any non-electronic extenders for Canon…
Both of these work fine with the RED and their Canon mounts (both Ti and Al)…

:sifone: Peter

 

[Alan Peterson]

It's hard to beat the Sigma 300-800mm for birds. Having 800mm reach and being able to pull back to grab some wider shots to intercut with closeup footage is great for single camera shoots. The lack of IS can be an impediment for grabbing stationary shots on windy days, but even then tracking a bird in flight should be no problem if you have a tripod with strong enough drag.

If you like the field of view at 800mm and 3K, then there's no reason not to stick with that on the Epic and just crank up the frame rate. That's usually how I shoot for hummingbirds or nests that I can't get close to.

 

[Russ Fill]

Wonderful shot of the moon Peter!

Anyone try the Tamron 150-600mm?



A motion mount would also work well. the 52mm solution is much cheaper though.

Just be aware that the Motion Mounts have limits to the frame rates when used in combination with square or soft shutter settings. ND they will work just fine for most anything but you do loose 2 stops just using them. But I have to say when shooting wild life and being able to just dial up a new ND setting is invaluable when not wanting to stop and change the small filters in the back of the lens while watching your subject fly away or run away.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Anyone used the Sigma's? They have a number of lenses that could be used for wildlife: 300-800 F5.6, 800 F5.6, 500 F4.5, 300 F2.8... and while they're not cheap, they're a fraction of the price of Nikon long lenses (I'm assuming they're also more affordable than Canon glass). They've also been getting pretty good reviews.

They say "Once bitten, twice shy". In my case I am twice bitten with Sigma. Its been years, but the pain I had undergone made me swear not to use Sigma again. Since then I have been all Canon.

A good zoom like 200-400 with built in 1.4x works well for quickly grabbing different PoVs. I work in low light more. So I prefer the Canon 400 f2.8 IS lens with 2x TC. That gives me 800mm at f5.6. When needed I quickly change the 2x TC to 1.4x TC or completely remove it.