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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Leica PL's "future proof"?

T

Tim Duran

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I visited the Band Pro booth at Red's open house last Thursday. When I asked about whether or not the lens covered 5k, I got a weird comment that I don't need to worry, that the lens was future proof. After reviewing Leica's and Band Pro's specs, I see nothing as to whether or not the lens covers S35, 4k, 5k, 35FF or whatever. Then I explored the Masters and couldn't find the same info on those sites either. For the price, I can't believe that they would not at least cover S35, but on the other hand, the 24-290 is only academy format according to Angenieux literature. What do you guys know from official sources?
 
I'd be very surprised if they didn't cover S35... :-)

And the lenses are future proof, because they are gorgeous and well built.

Would be kind of weird bundling them with the Epic, if they didn't cover 5k, though.

FF. Is that even a movie format yet?
 
I was suprised that all my Ziess MKIII super speeds covered 5k... very surprised. I thought for sure the 18 would have clipped the corners. Nope... clean as..
I think there value just went up again. :)

I usually shoot with the master primes, but... The little tiny MKIII's keep blowing me away.
I'd was not even interested at all using these lenses when I was a Purist 35mm film man. They were just not sharp enough and I blamed the lens... but in fact FILM is soft. (especially when you side by side it with RED)

Now that we have been using them on the REDONE and EPIC, man have they come to life. RED images for me are just too sharp.. to perfect... (not complaining as you can always go backwards not forwards and for visual effect work, sharper cleaner the better).
So... the MKIII's are doing wonders for pictures, Seriously couldnt ask for a better lens at the moment. 1.2 fstop.. or was that T1.3? what ever.. and they are super light and small, meaning I can keep throwing around the EPIC without the lens weighing it down like a brick!

Love the Master Primes like I do.. I'm just not liking the weight and size of them at the moment, they are starting to annoy me. But you cannot bad mouth the image quality.

I have a question, how the hell did Ziess make a lens so small and bright, when ARRI couldnt... ? Is it a PENIS thing?
 
I have a question, how the hell did Ziess make a lens so small and bright, when ARRI couldnt... ? Is it a PENIS thing?[/QUOTE]

depends on the lead in the pencil!
 
I really doubt that the wider summilix-c Leica's (18 for example) will cover full frame ff35 or 6k.
I would LOVE to be proved wrong though.

Right now as it is, 5k is already pushing the limits for wider super35 lenses. I have been told that s4s don't cut it at 5k.

I am counting on the ff35 red electronic lenses. =)
 
Mark Toia said:
I have a question, how the hell did Ziess make a lens so small and bright, when ARRI couldnt... ?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that Zeiss made the Arri lenses.

So it's all about the evenness of field, vignetting etc.
 
Officially, short answer, the Leica Summilux-C lenses will cover the Epic sensor without any vignetting, no problem.

The image circle needed to cover the Epic is often cited as 29.7mm. Leica's are safe up to 33mm or so. After that they don't go black immediately, just begin to lose sharpness in the corners. How many "k" fits into a 33mm circle depends on your pixel size. So whether or not the Leicas will cover a 6K sensor will only be clear once the dimensions of the sensor are available.
 
Yeah, but i wonder why drop 175K for a lense set with the Dragon sensor in one year...

Antoine Fabi
 
All of our best guesses are that the Dragon Sensor will provide a performance upgrade to Epic, but will not change the sensor's physical dimensions in any but minor ways. In other words, the Leicas will still liklely provide full coverage
 
Seth, I think you have some wrong figures. It has been published many times that the M-X sensor is 33.55. 5K is larger, but I can't find Duclos's invaluable chart to get the correct figure. Man at Band Pro didn't know what I was talking about when I asked for coverage dimentions. All I got was "future proof."
 
Given the latest Red-Leica collaboration, I would bet the first Dragons will fit within the Leicas' image circle. FF35 won't fit, but there is a lot that can be done between that and the current 5k M-X that would be worth an upgrade. A lot of the mojo will be from improvements to the sensor technology itself --not even talking about photosite size here. We should keep in mind that you won't always want to use such large sensor areas either. It isn't all about bigger is better, though often bigger certainly is better. I am imagining a "6k" or thereabouts Dragon as the first. Slightly larger in area than the current 5k M-X, but still within Leica coverage --though with significant improvements in sensor technology (e.g.: 15-stops of single exposure DR), which put together would make it an irresistible and slam-dunk totally worth-it sensor upgrade.
 
Tim Duran said:
Seth, I think you have some wrong figures. It has been published many times that the M-X sensor is 33.55. 5K is larger, but I can't find Duclos's invaluable chart to get the correct figure. Man at Band Pro didn't know what I was talking about when I asked for coverage dimentions. All I got was "future proof."
Click to expand...

Tim, I now see why our numbers are different. You (and by extension Mr. Duclos) are correct on full sensor size. I took my number from an approximate 16x9 windowing of the sensor. However, the image circle created by the lenses is correct. Real world testing has shown that the 18mm Leica covers the Epic sensor while staying sharp in the corners and maintaining good geometry.

As far as ole "future proof," well, what can I say? Just like any organization, there are some folks that know more than others. What this person should have done is found someone who knew the answer rather than parroting marketing phrases. But, when I call an airline and get a "no" from the first person I speak with, I always call back and talk to someone else. If you have any other questions about the lenses I'd be happy to either answer them or find the answer if I don't know it.

Also (shameless plug) we'll be hosting a Leica Screening/Presentation tomorrow and Saturday at Cine Gear. In addition to showing footage on a large screen with 4K projection, the optical designer of the lenses, Iain Neil, will be doing a technical presentation and be available for Q&A from the audience. If you're unable to attend but have a question for Mr. Neil, I'd be happy to address it with him when I see him tomorrow.
 
Seth, small world. When you said "we", I'm thinking "who is this guy?" Seth, we just met yesterday in your office!!

I'll be at Cinegear tomorrow , Friday. What time is the showing?

YOu might want to suggest to the sales staff to be prepared for more "Red owner" type questions. You know, the sophisticated Reduser guys!
 
Friday Presentation is at 8:15pm. Saturday presentation is at 2pm. See you tomorrow!
 
Seth, you did a good job as moderator. Next time get your panel to speak in the microphones. I was sitting in the middle of the front section. Your engineer stood as far away from the audience as possible. With his accent and failure to use the mic you provided him, I could not hear a thing he said. Gentleman on the left would go from talking into the mic to talking away from the mic to talking with his hand over his mouth. Your visual presentation was very enjoyable. The verbal presentation needs a lot of work.
 
Mark Toia said:
I was suprised that all my Ziess MKIII super speeds covered 5k... very surprised. I thought for sure the 18 would have clipped the corners. Nope... clean as..
I think there value just went up again. :)

I usually shoot with the master primes, but... The little tiny MKIII's keep blowing me away.
I'd was not even interested at all using these lenses when I was a Purist 35mm film man. They were just not sharp enough and I blamed the lens... but in fact FILM is soft. (especially when you side by side it with RED)

Now that we have been using them on the REDONE and EPIC, man have they come to life. RED images for me are just too sharp.. to perfect... (not complaining as you can always go backwards not forwards and for visual effect work, sharper cleaner the better).
So... the MKIII's are doing wonders for pictures, Seriously couldnt ask for a better lens at the moment. 1.2 fstop.. or was that T1.3? what ever.. and they are super light and small, meaning I can keep throwing around the EPIC without the lens weighing it down like a brick!

Love the Master Primes like I do.. I'm just not liking the weight and size of them at the moment, they are starting to annoy me. But you cannot bad mouth the image quality.

I have a question, how the hell did Ziess make a lens so small and bright, when ARRI couldnt... ? Is it a PENIS thing?
Click to expand...

I second that. I've always been a huge fan of Mk 3's on R1. They flare beautifully. I just rarely shoot below a 2.0 with them as they fall apart optically when you go below that.
 
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