Leica M for narrative work?

[Roberto Lequeux]

Duclos, hope you read this.

Leica M and R lens focus throw starting from 300° for primes to 340° for macro lenses, pretty good for still lenses.

What?! The throw is a full 300° for the wides?! As in almost a full turn with the longer focal lengths being practically a full turn?!?!!!

I wonder if ZF owners are thinking what I am thinking? Would you keep these in mind for a future "upgrade" (up to each personal opinion I suppose) if you could figure out a working set? If you can find a solution for the wide end that is.

The ZF's don't offer more since the 18mm is a f/3.5 and the 21mm is actually slower at f/2.8 so Leica M's are an actual improvement speed wise... even if there is no 18mm a f/3.5 would not even be considered by most for narrative work. It would be color matched so you wouldn't have to worry about matching them in a cut but f/3.5 is a deal breaker. Also the Leica 18mm is a f/3.8 so it is practically the same as the Zeiss 18mm if you are going to go with the slow lens. The ZF 85mm has the upper hand being a f/1.4 as opposed to the f2.0 of the 75mm and 90mm Leicas.

Sanjin, could you help me figure out the cost of a brand new set like this one below. I am not sure where to find the good prices for the Leicas. I also wonder what you would think about color matching the RPP based on what you've seen to the Leicas which you own. And you also own a Tokina so please give me your opinion on that too. Thank you for helping me figure out this scenario!

11-16mm f2.8 (Tokina) - optional
18mm f/1.8 (RPP)
21mm f/1.4
24mm f/1.4
35mm f/1.4
50mm f/1.4
75mm f/2.0
90mm f/2.0

I guess an option would be to shoot with a larger than S35 sensor size. Though that would make it tricky to pull focus sometimes so perhaps a combination of sensor sizes with different modes on a FF35 DSMC where you use the 21mm in FF35 mode for wides and switch to S35 size mode for everything else...

 

[Jeff Zueger]

Hey Roberto, how are you man? Just thought I'd share what I did. I put this set of Leica Rs together this past winter and love them. I found great lenses off Ebay (obviously buyer beware and do your regular Ebay research) I purchased
24MM Elmarit 2.8
35MM Elmarit 2.8
50MM Summicron 2
90MM Elmarit 2.8
135mm Elmarit 2.8
180MM Elmarit 4
35-70MM Vario-Elmar 3.5
80-200MM 4
I had Duclos mod them with focus gears and Nikon mount. I use these with EX3/Letus Elite Rig, RED and just had my old 2C mod to Nikon mount via Les Bosher, so using them on 3 of my main cameras. I plan on adding a 100 macro and a 19 as well. Love the 50 and the 135 as early favorites. The main downfall is not the focus throw but the barrel movement when focusing and zooming. Obviously the longer lenses and zooms have the most barrel movement. I do a lot of Tourism, slice of life, stock stuff and they are great for that. I don't do a lot of narrative and could see how this could become an issue. I have less than 6 k invested including the mod in this glass.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Oh wow, it seems from that second to last pic that some of those R series do move a lot, based on that super fat gear. Thanks for sharing! Please post a grab or two when you if you get a chance and feel like sharing. I am sure those R Leicas will look fantastic even though they aren't as fast... though f/2.8 would work in most cases if they are as fast as I suspect while wide open.

Sanjin, could you please throw into your list of answers a little on barrel movement for the Ms series?

 

[Jeff Zueger]

That's the 35-70 which is the worst of all of them (movement wise). This is the only frame I have (don't have any post) I think this was the 50...it's terrible but I'm not positive what we had on.

 

[Jeff Zueger]

Looks a bit washed here to me, this was sent to me from post house. I'm sure we were close to wide open

 

[Andrew Walker]

Nice thread Roberto. Should be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Maybe a bit milky but not so much, probably just seems that way on computer monitors. Based on the histogram which had a gap at the bottom end I dragged the bottom over using curves till I got the info almost down to zero. No actual curves though, just pulled the bottom point.

The quality is stupefying, I mean it looks so... I don't know... I think I'd have to f' it up a bit or something hehe... I no DP, but Leica is just something else. I am afraid to hear the total cost of the set...

I wonder if there is a set in LA that I could come check out in person. Jeff's R set (and a whole lot of other top shelf gear) is in South Dakota for those interested.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hey guys,

I´m on the mountains (Alps, Vorarlberg, Austria) and here is raining like in a hell...

also I´m on wireless modem and connection is pretty slow and I can´t replay as super-fast as from Vienna (broadband).

Very interesting tread!!!

Also I must add that the most of Leica M lenses are pretty small and light in comparison with Leica R or Zeiss ZF lenses.

But you can do a zig-zag between M and L system because they all color match and build a nice set that can be used for

narative, commercial, documentary, any handheld work, etc...

Leica R has 19mm f/2.8 that is not far away from 18mm for wide.

Also has 15mm f/2.8 and M system has special Zeiss 15mm f/2.8 ZM that is one of the best wide lenses made ever.

But forget M system for the most of RED Users because you would need IMS that´s void WArranty and all is pretty risky way to go...

So back to Leica R system (that is also recently discontinued) you could build very nice set for narative something like:

15mm f/2.8
19mm f/2.8
24mm f/2.8
28mm f/2.8
35mm f/1.4
50mm f/1.4
60mm Macro f/2.8
85mm f/1.4
100mm Macro f/2

Shot with Leica R Summilux 50mm f/1.4 at f/2.8 and Tamron 28-300mm on RED1>>>Waiting for a bear or cow>>> a view from my room image attached:

View attachment 104

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Nothing? There has to be a way, maybe an adapter sandwich?

Ok, so R series like Jeff's. Here is the Leica link: http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/r_system/lenses/

It seems the fastest set would be this:

15mm f/2.8
19mm f/2.8
25mm f/1.4
35mm f/1.4
50mm f/1.4
80mm f/1.4
90mm f/2.0
100mm f/2.8 (macro)

But where do you find the 25mm f/1.4? I only see a 28mm f/2.8 and the 25mm would be a far better step and speed. Also where is the 85mm? I only see an 80mm.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Nothing? There has to be a way, maybe an adapter sandwich?

Ok, so R series like Jeff's. Here is the Leica link: http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/r_system/lenses/

It seems the fastest set would be this:

15mm f/2.8
19mm f/2.8
25mm f/1.4
35mm f/1.4
50mm f/1.4
80mm f/1.4
90mm f/2.0
100mm f/2.8 (macro)

But where do you find the 25mm f/1.4? I only see a 28mm f/2.8 and the 25mm would be a far better step and speed. Also where is the 85mm? I only see an 80mm.

Roberto,

sorry it was a typo, I tried from iPhone (slow connection) and now back again on laptop MBP.

Very good find.

Also don´had t forget that Van Diemen used R lenses for its Leica cine set.

Panavision Primo L series were made custom with ELCAN based Leica>>Leitz glass and optical specifications with Leica photo image in mind.

Give you a nice recent example of the movie (drama/narative) shot with spherical Panavision Primos that made not so big box office but a nice cinematography and if you work with Leica glass then you can immediately recognize a famous Leica image quality:

Nights in Rodanthe>>

with Diane Lane and Richard Gere, directed by George C. Wolfe, cinematography by Affonso Beato

So you do not need always anamorphic lenses for a good wide screen cinematography...

 

[XiaoSu Han]

You want to buy all those Leica lenses new?

You could get Bob.H's PL set which has been offered for sale in the sales forum, that would make much more sense.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Sanjin, could you please get to a WiFi hot spot! I need some info man! Where can I find the best pricing for that list? And how can I get accurate numbers regarding degrees of focus travel? f/2.8 for the 18mm is kind of a bummer... well a big bad bummer, but not a deal breaker with the 25mm working more than not when you are talking about exteriors and f/2.8 is a walk in the park for interiors unless you are lighting a hangar.

You want to buy all those Leica lenses new?

You could get Bob.H's PL set which has been offered for sale in the sales forum, that would make much more sense.

Hard to know Xiao, I am scared to go search the web for prices.
I need all the help I can get in learning about lenses and I don't know what set you are referring to there. Is that a PL-modified set of Leicas? Please help me out with a link!


EDIT: Aha! Found it! It wasn't too buried.
Those are literaly something else! Thanks for the heads up.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31078

15/19/21/24/28/35/50/80 and PL

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Give you a nice recent example of the movie (drama/narative) shot with spherical Panavision Primos that made not so big box office but a nice cinematography and if you work with Leica glass then you can immediately recognize a famous Leica image quality:

Nights in Rodanthe>>

with Diane Lane and Richard Gere, directed by George C. Wolfe, cinematography by Affonso Beato

So you do not need always anamorphic lenses for a good wide screen cinematography...

So if I understand correctly, and I am not mistaking still photography for screen shots, these should be (graded) Spherical Primo examples:

 

[Dave Blackham]

Im interested in the Leica M lenses (we already user Leica R with A mount) our requirements are for 3D work and the small size of the M lenses could be very helpful.

Is there anything to be gained or lost by using M rather than R assuming the lens can be mounted and the focal lengths are available as needed. Also is there any other super wide option equal or better than the Tokina, I see Voigtländer make 12.5m and 15mm M mount lenses but I know nothing about them.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Im interested in the Leica M lenses (we already user Leica R with A mount) our requirements are for 3D work and the small size of the M lenses could be very helpful.

Is there anything to be gained or lost by using M rather than R assuming the lens can be mounted and the focal lengths are available as needed. Also is there any other super wide option equal or better than the Tokina, I see Voigtländer make 12.5m and 15mm M mount lenses but I know nothing about them.

You would need P+S Technik IMS for RED base mount and Leica M mount adapter.

R1 with Voigtländer 12mm M that both met with Matthew Tremblay’s farther at Belvedere Castle and Gardens in Vienna, September 2008.
Btw. Matthew Tremblay is Chief Designer at RED Digital Cinema.

R1 with Voigtländer 12mm M that both met with Matthew Tremblay’s farther at Belvedere Castle and Gardens in Vienna, September 2008.
Btw. Matthew Tremblay is Chief Designer at RED Digital Cinema.


Voigtländer make 12mm and 15mm Leica M mount are very nice and sharp but vignetting on R1.

R1 with Voigtländer 12mm M.

R1 with Voigtländer 12mm M.

R1 with Voigtländer 12mm M.

The most of Leica R lenses have longer focus throw than Leica M lenses and breathing is heavier with M series.

 

[Charles Angus]

You can't use M lenses on a Red ONE with an adaptor because of the short backfocus distance. Mechanical adaptors can only increase the backfocus distance, not decrease it.

Hence why you need a modified mount, like the IMS. The IMS allows mounting lenses closer to the sensor than the stock mount.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

You can't use M lenses on a Red ONE with an adaptor because of the short backfocus distance. Mechanical adaptors can only increase the backfocus distance, not decrease it.

Hence why you need a modified mount, like the IMS. The IMS allows mounting lenses closer to the sensor than the stock mount.

Charles,

sorry but you look to me as a newbie here to talk about IMS for RED mount.

Unfortunately IMS for RED still voids RED warranty but also it happend that is the best universal mount for RED1 cameras.

BTW, P+S Technik "was founded in 1990 by former engineers from ARRI headquarters in Munich."

Also sold in US by ZGC owner of Cooke lenses made in England.

 

[R.ChilD]

sanjin I had mailed you in the past about this but do the modified M lenses breathe

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Hi Roberto,

Is it just the rotation that attracts you or the different aesthetic of the lenses?

Don't the ZF lenses have a throw of about 270 degrees which seems plenty.

Rob

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

sanjin I had mailed you in the past about this but do the modified M lenses breathe

It depends on lens model, type, design, focal length, age, focus distance, etc,...

One of my R1-MX recently test with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 (one of Leica's Masterpieces)

can be seen at 1K size at the Vimeo link below:

http://vimeo.com/13000869

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH at wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH at wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH, wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH, wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH, wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH, wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH, wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.

Shot on R1MX with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 ASPH, wide open @ f/2.0, ISO 1600, 25 fps, 1/50, WB in RCX.