LART results Commentary Thread

[Steve Gibby]

-Blue and Green screen .R3D files. These were the first usable key clips posted for everyone to test and experiment with. These were cleverly shot so that the maximum size was small enough to post. No crappy QT's or other compromises.

Gavin Greenwalt and Jeff Kilgroe shot multiple blue screen and green screen tests at LART. If you track Gavin’s comments on this thread, you’ll see our progress processing them. Yeah, we didn’t rush them up to post, but then again we’re thorough in our approach to processing files.

-Over 4 gigs of an entire sequence of shots presented as .R3D files. Tired of cutting the same clips over and over? Want to test a REDCINE workflow? Here's a full scene in wide, CU's and cutaways. Another first.

At LART we shot 10 multi-camera professional scenes, using four RED one cameras – all with pro level DPs and cinematographers. As longtime professionals working in the industry, we are in the habit of posting our work professionally before sharing it for viewing. Some of the multi-camera scenes from LART are ready to put up, which will happen shortly. Others will follow when they have been professionally posted to our satisfaction.

-3200K vrs 5600K testing. The first ever done and the results shared instantly.

Actually we did 3200 vs 5600k testing at LART long before you did. Congratulations on sharing your results instantly. We felt better about analyzing our results and will post a summary along with our other results.

-Rolling shutter. First public tests for both skew and compression.

Actually, at LART we did the first public tests for rolling shutter, skew and compression. Congratulations on sharing your results instantly. We felt better about analyzing our results and will post a summary along with our other results.

Guys, I'd argue in the short history of RED no single camera has done so much for the group good as RED 232 and the people behind it.

Oh really? RED #8 has been used intensively for almost five months now, doing several world firsts (3D, underwater, aerial, B4, and on and on), and untold amounts of impressions and results have been posted here on RED User from the camera, and a boatload of other feedback from the camera to RED that was never posted here, and a relative latecomer camera like RED 232, outdoes that contribution to “the group” by simply doing some quick tests and rushing some results to the forum? And Offhollywoods RED 6 & 7 have contributed massive amounts of on-forum info and feedback, plus copious amounts of feedback to RED, and Blair’s #19 (at LART), and Billy’s #13 (at LART), etc, etc, etc. Your statement is ludicrous…

We just did it and got the results out ASAP despite equally busy schedules.

Congratulations on rushing your results to the forum. We had infinitely more footage and data to crunch from LART than you did at your one-camera test. We had 30 people, extensive lens tests, greenscreen/bluescreen, stabilization unit tests (Steadicam and ActionCam), five RED cameras, jibs, 10 stunt men, actors, a SCRATCH station, a VUZE editing station, and about 400GB of raw footage to sort through. Then it had to go to initial color correction, editing, correction, and finally mastering for delivery. That’s a ton more things to do than you had in your limited scope event.

And how do you know your schedule is as busy as the 30 highly experienced motion media industry veterans who comprised the LART team? Pretty heavy motion media industry in Colorado Springs, eh Jim?

One other point... L.A.R.T. did accept donations for a "snack fund"... so I'd be careful when telling someone "you'll get it when you get it and be glad of it" to at least check and see if they contributed to your party, as all these folks are in some way helping out... after all, I myself did... and the irony is that our RED #232 out of pocket expense for last Monday was the exact amount I personally gave to L.A.R.T. for snacks...

Me and Ken Corben put in several months of planning and management to pull off the LART event, with professional kits, crews, and facilities. We’re seasoned professionals currently co-producing multiple national television programs and a feature movie. If we line itemed in a budget breakdown what our time is worth to produce LART it would be a sizeable sum. We donated that time and revenue generation loss to this community for the good of the community. The donations for snacks for the LART team were much appreciated, as I posted. That said, it was just a tiny amount compared the out of pocket expenses and lost revenue from lost time that me and Corben contributed to LART.

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This is a LART results commentary thread on the dedicated L.A. RED Test sub-forum. I used to moderate RED User, for several months, but due to a busy schedule I only moderate one forum on RED User – and this one is it. Scroll to the bottom of the page and view the moderators and you’ll see my name. Congratulations on your tests with RED 232. I think its great that you tested and posted results on other forums of RED User. I don’t think it is great that you chose to post on this dedicated LART results forum your belittling of LART and criticism of the speed of my rollout of the LART results.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Gavin Greenwalt and Jeff Kilgroe shot multiple blue screen and green screen tests at LART. If you track Gavin’s comments on this thread, you’ll see our progress processing them. Yeah, we didn’t rush them up to post, but then again we’re thorough in our approach to processing files.

I like instant gratification too, but a lot of us have been busy in different ways. I've got the LART blue/green footage here and have worked with it off and on. Unfortunately, my systems have been swamped and I haven't had a chance to finish what I've started working with in regards to the LART footage (integrating subjects from the bluescreen tests with CG elements). I don't have an ETA yet. It's not so much an issue of time, but of resources and conflicting deadlines. ...Holidays threw a kink in there too.

I'm curious to know a few things from Jim's tests... I haven't analyzed all his findings shot with camera #232. But what was found with the Red channel in 3200K vs 5600K and in between? At LART some of our most useful findings were actually contained in the Red channel and were not specifically related to the Blue channel or the various levels of noise and artifacting found there.

I've run across a lot of the diamond or box pattern noise and OLPF flares, but it seems that much of that has been improved with the new cameras and firmware.

Gibby has explained in several posts, but I think a lot of people are still confused about what LART was. It wasn't a strict regiment of highly controlled or analytical testing. It was an opportunity to test or try the RED camera in a variety of shooting situations. Much of the footage shot at LART probably isn't something to be critically analyzed, but rather it can show some characteristics of the RED image. And people can ask "how did the RED handle when you shot that?"

I honestly left LART with far more questions about processing REDCODE and image anomalies than I had going in. But I was able to confirm a lot of what I had surmised about RED and the use of the camera. I learned a great deal about RED workflow and configurations that one just can't get by reading online and looking at pictures. The knowledge I obtained at LART combined with what I know of the new batch of gen-"X" cameras has pointed me toward a specific set of tests I would like to begin once Erik's #519 and my #1110 arrive. ...Looks like we're going to just miss out on this next round of shipments for #519 though.

I do agree with Jim Arthurs in that posting usable test footage from a RED One shouldn't be a big deal. The lack of available footage from very specific and controlled tests is somewhat of a curiosity. No fault of the LART event by any means, I think once people see the bulk of the LART footage and realize what was shot, it will make more sense... With over 100 cameras in the wild, I'm surprised there isn't more downloadable goodies to look at.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

I don’t think it is great that you chose to post on this dedicated LART results forum your belittling of LART and criticism of the speed of my rollout of the LART results.

Fair enough.

I do feel critical of L.A.R.T for various reasons. Most of the tests I did were in response to of lack of L.A.R.T feedback on these topics. I will refrain from expressing my frustration in the future.

Regards

 

[Dexter Gregoire]

Is there a report anywhere available? A real report.

I don't care to see pictures of beautiful women. I'm married, I get enough t1ts and a55.

I want to read a report of what to expect as to the advantages and limitations of RED. Are you still keeping secrets?

 

[chuck colburn]

Gibby,

Suit up, breath deeply and ride those winter waves! lol

 

[Jim Arthurs]

I'm curious to know a few things from Jim's tests... I haven't analyzed all his findings shot with camera #232. But what was found with the Red channel in 3200K vs 5600K and in between?

Hi Jeff... feel free to grab the raw .R3D's or the DPX's if you wish... it's all "open source" so to speak for anyone to look at. It will be interesting to see how those images compare to the pre-modifications on the original 100.

Gibby has explained in several posts, but I think a lot of people are still confused about what LART was. It wasn't a strict regiment of highly controlled or analytical testing. It was an opportunity to test or try the RED camera in a variety of shooting situations. Much of the footage shot at LART probably isn't something to be critically analyzed, but rather it can show some characteristics of the RED image. And people can ask "how did the RED handle when you shot that?"

That's the best description I've yet heard. Thank you. Understand that forum members not involved in L.A.R.T. have heard mostly cross-chatter between L.A.R.T. members about how much fun they had, how hot this model is, the fun personalities of this guy or that guy, but precious little information about what was shot and what was concluded.

The lack of available footage from very specific and controlled tests is somewhat of a curiosity. No fault of the LART event by any means, I think once people see the bulk of the LART footage and realize what was shot, it will make more sense... With over 100 cameras in the wild, I'm surprised there isn't more downloadable goodies to look at.

Agreed. I've seen this same pattern happen with most cameras since the web has been a method for people to endlessly discuss them.

Jim J. himself mentioned that our skew tests were essentially what they were seeing in house. I don't think a couple extra weeks of looking at the images would have changed what we presented in either that case or the color temperature issue...

Besides, how valid are the hardcore tests done at L.A.R.T in light of the new generation of cameras? Maybe that phase should simply die away and let new info trickle in via other owners with the newer cameras?

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Or, new RED owners in haste will rush less than perfect footage out the
door and then make endless excuses about backfocus, op error,
not understanding RED software or other excuses and then the naysayers
at the other sites who are upside down with expensive equipment loans go on the attack.
So I understand that LART may want to "upload" only the best RED footage available.

 

[Casey Green]

Hang in there, everyone. I'm sure LART results will be posted soon. I'm as anxious as anyone, and I was one of the participants.

I might suggest, however, that we start a new "LART Results Commentary Thread" when the Clips and Data are released, since this thread is already 90 posts deep. I know I wouldn't want to wade through all of these posts first.

 

[Finner]

That's the best description I've yet heard. Thank you. Understand that forum members not involved in L.A.R.T. have heard mostly cross-chatter between L.A.R.T. members about how much fun they had, how hot this model is, the fun personalities of this guy or that guy, but precious little information about what was shot and what was concluded.

What you have heard from myself or others has all been the superficial details due to NDA.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

Now (better) understood.

And Finner... you ARE a personality.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hey Jim & LART

Actually it has been very nice to have Jims footy to look at (as RAW and unprocessed footy) for a lot of differnet reasons. (for a guy still waiting...)

I agree it's kinda odd to post about it on this thread, but nevertheless, RAW footy has its absolute and non-diminishable value for future Red users.

So does professionally posted footy.

And the best is examples of both... (I know. You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT upload 400 gb of RAW material. But for some shots...)

Anyway. Don't make this a contest or complaint. It's all very much appreciated. I like seeing the problems as much as the successes, actually. The problems do not put me off, but let me prepare. The successes are inspirational.

Cheers

and thanks

Gunleik

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Also know that we've been throwing a lot of feedback straight at RED. For instance Jeff mentioned the diamond issue. Three of us made a point of pestering RED about cold weather performance whenever we got a chance during LART. It is going slow and we arne't making a lot of progress in some areas and I feel bad about it but there is also more subtle work at play based on what we're seeing than just posting r3d files and calling it a day.

Testing for the sake of testing is one thing. Testing for the sake of change is another.

For instance we did strobe testing at LART. You'll never see that footage because it didn't produce the result we wanted. I could throw it up tonight except it would serve no purpose except to confuse people and bring down a lot of anger at me for doing the test wrong. But it was one of those cases where you wouldn't know to do the test the right way until you've done it wrong once and seen what happened.

Also don't hold your breath for 'benchmark' footage. The greenscreen was admittedly haphazard and only 5'x8' I think. The Bluescreen was much larger but still not a professional cyc wall with color matched kinos a big light kid and a day of prep. What it will show though is a large variety of skintones, hair colors, clothing colors and the like to demonstrate the differences and challenges that RED might present. Variety over depth was the testing criteria.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I honestly left LART with far more questions about processing REDCODE and image anomalies than I had going in. But I was able to confirm a lot of what I had surmised about RED and the use of the camera. I learned a great deal about RED workflow and configurations that one just can't get by reading online and looking at pictures.
.

If that was your most important take away I'm sure you were not alone.. Couldn't we just have a discussion about, or even just hear about all that you people learned about RED workflow and configurations?
With the NDA's it's all a bit: we all went to this GREAT party but we can't talk about it.. Well you all did a LOT of shouting about it for months before it happened: LART has it's own fixed thread etc etc Everyone else just posts their footage or new opinions and fades away.
Also as time flies by and you can't talk about it or post any images, doesn't the whole thing become increasingly irrelevant for everyone else?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I see your point Gavin, and as mentioned here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=137876#post137876
I've been reluctant to post in English what I've seen from some tests...

BUT
As I've actually bought into this thing, it's good to see the God, the Bad and the Ugly. Nothing's gonna change my view, but quite a lot might change my approach and how i shoot when I receive my cam.

The thing is:
Should we have a closed forum for people (like me) who's gonna buy the cam anyway - and really would like to see the best AND worst results from using it (and how these results wre e accomplished), or is just the good and pro results interesting?

I've seen real crap from Red (and probably will shot some).
Some of that crap has been due to technical problems with the Red.
Some have been due to people treating it as a 35mm film cam
And some have been due to basically bad shoting.

All have been quite informative. More so than the "best" shots. To me at least - as I've long ago bought into the thing...

I'm NOT looking for bad shots per se, just looking for informed information (or RAW files) to get a better picture on how to get a better picture.

Sorta.. p:

Cheers!

Gunleik

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Haha, well it's not a question of scaring people away by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that the test is useless. It was literally the very last thing anybody tested. The cameras were going in bags and people were saying goodbye and leaving for hotels/flights etc and I pursuaded a camera out of its bag to shoot some real quick stuff of a strobe light with Finner.

And unfortunately we happened to have the world's fastest strobe light. You can see it warm up... illuminate the frame for about 50 pixels and then fade out. And we were shooting at something rediculous like 1/1000th of a second and we still only captured 50 pixels of it.

It answered the question I had been curious about "does the RED read from top to bottom like a conventional sensor or are they doing something new and clever like outward from center or diagonally or who knows what." But that just confirmed that it was a standard readout pattern, which is pretty clear in a great number of other shots. Beyond that it was pretty much useless. And our strobe was too short and too slow to ignite to determine if there is any sort of feathering going on in the readout somehow. Jim Arthur's strobe tests are far more methodical and useful.

 

[Finner]

It did however give us some nice alone time in a dark bathroom Gavin.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I reallly love the thought of that

g

 

[Jim Arthurs]

Gavin and Jeff... I appreciate the hard work you're doing here and know it's hard enough to pull time for this sort of thing... in regards to anything that fringes on testing... you know, it might be enough to just (soon as your NDA is MIA) write out a summary of your individual experiences and thoughts.

With all the rapid changes in firmware and the new cameras in general, this sort of thing might be more interesting than tests. Same goes for all the participants. I know I'd like to hear your war stories because everyone will have a different point of view on what they saw or experienced.

Since we can't clip yet down .R3D's into bite sized clips, distribution of all the scenerios you shot over the weekend is another thing... what to do... in addition to that on-line channel you're working with, one option could be that the material would be great booth presentation and RED theatre fare, or what ever RED plans for events like NAB and Apple tours...

Just a thought.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Gavin and Jeff... I appreciate the hard work you're doing here and know it's hard enough to pull time for this sort of thing... in regards to anything that fringes on testing... you know, it might be enough to just (soon as your NDA is MIA) write out a summary of your individual experiences and thoughts.

With all the rapid changes in firmware and the new cameras in general, this sort of thing might be more interesting than tests. Same goes for all the participants. I know I'd like to hear your war stories because everyone will have a different point of view on what they saw or experienced.

Since we can't clip yet down .R3D's into bite sized clips, distribution of all the scenerios you shot over the weekend is another thing... what to do... in addition to that on-line channel you're working with, one option could be that the material would be great booth presentation and RED theatre fare, or what ever RED plans for events like NAB and Apple tours...

Just a thought.

The NDA is simply a tool we always use in any project we are producing to ensure that we, as producers of the event, have the right to release the information when we see fit, and when we choose. Every attendee at LART signed an NDA which acknowledges that Steve Gibby has the final say on when and how the results are publicly distributed. There's no unnecessary secrecy going on here. Fact is, me and Ken spent copious amounts of time and resources producing the event, and as such reserved the right via NDA to release the results and specific info from the event. The NDA isn't going MIA. Its permanent. In asking the LART team member to at some point itemize their specific experiences, you are in effect asking them to disregard a written NDA they each signed as part of their entry requirements to LART.

Very shortly this morning I will be starting a thread on this forum posting the summaries of Finner and Matt Uhry on their lens testing at LART. They submitted their finding summaries to me, and as I always intended, their findings will be posted nearly verbatim for how they delivered them to me.

Jeff and Gavin did some excellent work under the limitations - and their work was much appreciated.

There's no secrecy or weirdness going on here - just normal business by professional producers who reserved the right to release info on an event they produced - something that happens every day, everywhere in this industry.

As right holder to the info and footage from LART, and knowing the public display of the top-quality footage from LART will be beneficial to anyone interested in RED cameras, and totally separate from our posting of edited LART scenes on the VUZE LART channel, I have specifically authorized RED to use some of the footage for display purposes. The LART team graciously donated their valuable time and equipment to the effort, so nobody, including myself, RED, or anyone else will ever use the LART footage in a commercially available enterprise.

Again, and I've posted it many times before, LART was never positioned as a deep-drilling bench test event. We tested scores of lenses, and the summaries of the results will be posted on a new thread I'll start shortly today. Yes we did have some limitations on the green and blue screen testing, but we only had two days for the event, and the facility we were in was fantastic for what we did - hands on multi-camera practical use of RED cameras and kits by experienced professionals.

The edited results of those scenes should be very valuable to RED User members in that it shows the end product potential of the cameras in experienced hands. We had the latest upgrades to the cameras as of the testing time, and yes there have been upgrades since then, but then end result, the footage, is and will be very comparable. I don't expect Stephen Soderbergh or other producers to toss away and re-do their movies shot on RED just because they were shot using earlier builds of the camera. Good cinematography, editing, and correction are the real technical core of a good finished product, and that stands the test of time.

 

[Steve Gibby]

If that was your most important take away I'm sure you were not alone.. Couldn't we just have a discussion about, or even just hear about all that you people learned about RED workflow and configurations?
With the NDA's it's all a bit: we all went to this GREAT party but we can't talk about it.. Well you all did a LOT of shouting about it for months before it happened: LART has it's own fixed thread etc etc Everyone else just posts their footage or new opinions and fades away.
Also as time flies by and you can't talk about it or post any images, doesn't the whole thing become increasingly irrelevant for everyone else?

See my NDA post above which sheds some light on your questions. Yes, me and Ken Corben, as producers of LART, and rights holders to the info and results of the tests and shooting, always intended to post summaries of LART testing results. Some of that has trickled out from LART members, but in actuality the proper source for posting of the results summaries is myself and Corben. Those results summaries of LART members are not heavily edited by myself or Corben, but rather grammatically corrected if needed, and verified for accuracy.

The NDA simply serves to ensure that the results are posted accurately, and stems the arrival of fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD), which obviously can run rampant on a forum when bits and pieces of inaccurate or partially accurate info filters outward.

Shortly today, on a new thread on this LART forum, I'll post the Matt Uhry and Finners excellent summary of their lens tests at LART. As I've already posted, edited scenes are nearly complete and will be posted on VUZE as soon as we can. All of the scenes shot at LART will not be posted simultaneously on VUZE. It takes a ton of post work to get them ready. We all have pride in our professional work and we're taking care to post these scenes correctly, just as we would with our regular movies and television programs we produce.