LA TIMES weekly / EPIC

[Ketch Rossi]

Nice skin tones. But that 5 k resolution really shows up bad make up, IMHO.

Yes Steve it does, and it actually from the frame grab does no justice, as it does show much more in detail, but again is a great thing we do want this, off course pulling a frame grab from Motion capture will do no justice to the image, as when we do this with Stills we do a good amount of Photoshop to smooth out the skin tones and a bit sharpening to the eyes and leaps, before posting.

 

[Peter Franzen]

That is freakin wild, the way they used short motion loops composed and laid out in the publication like traditional stills.

That's something I've been playing around with for a while. Still a tad rough, but I like the proof of concept.

There are some tricky issues with doing it on the non-iPad web though. Firefox doesn't recognize the loop argument in HTML-5's "<video>" tag, Internet Explorer doesn't recognize <video> at all, and obviously the iPod/iPad don't work with Flash.

Plus, Firefox, Opera, and Chrome all have different encoding requirements for the video (Firefox can't do h.264 so an Ogg-Theora version plus additional markup needs to be added for it) so the simplest solution is still to use good old Flash and forget about the iPod/iPad.

I have a few more thoughts (and an HTML-5 version of that same clip) on my Vimeo Isn't Always the Answer blog post.

 

[chrislancaster]

I knew the prototypes were built and running, but I didnt think anyone outside of Red was being allowed access. There was another magazine shoot which incorrectly stated they were using Epic when they really had M-X.

I fully recognize that I might have missed something but this LA Times stuff is the first instance I've read of actual Epics in the wild outside of Red.

Edit:



This is what I mean! This thread seems a little confused over whether it's a prototype or an M-X, or what.

the short movie was filmed at RED studios and it credtis Jim and Jarred as camera operators


so it was actually done by the red team

 

[chrislancaster]

That's something I've been playing around with for a while. Still a tad rough, but I like the proof of concept.

There are some tricky issues with doing it on the non-iPad web though. Firefox doesn't recognize the loop argument in HTML-5's "<video>" tag, Internet Explorer doesn't recognize <video> at all, and obviously the iPod/iPad don't work with Flash.

Plus, Firefox, Opera, and Chrome all have different encoding requirements for the video (Firefox can't do h.264 so an Ogg-Theora version plus additional markup needs to be added for it) so the simplest solution is still to use good old Flash and forget about the iPod/iPad.

I have a few more thoughts (and an HTML-5 version of that same clip) on my Vimeo Isn't Always the Answer blog post.

i use firefox and it loops fine.. im sorry if i have mistaken just fyi

 

[David Rasberry]

That's something I've been playing around with for a while. Still a tad rough, but I like the proof of concept.

There are some tricky issues with doing it on the non-iPad web though. Firefox doesn't recognize the loop argument in HTML-5's "<video>" tag, Internet Explorer doesn't recognize <video> at all, and obviously the iPod/iPad don't work with Flash.

Plus, Firefox, Opera, and Chrome all have different encoding requirements for the video (Firefox can't do h.264 so an Ogg-Theora version plus additional markup needs to be added for it) so the simplest solution is still to use good old Flash and forget about the iPod/iPad.

I have a few more thoughts (and an HTML-5 version of that same clip) on my Vimeo Isn't Always the Answer blog post.

Thanks for the links Peter. Pretty flower shot.

 

[Milan Spasic]

So was the Cube. So was Firewire. So was the PowerPC.

Just because Steve says it doesn't make it true, especially in this case, where close to 90% of commercial websites use Flash in one way or anotherr.

It's called progress. All these products had their heyday (well, except for maybe the Cube). PowerPC kicked ass in it's time and so did FW. (FW800 still does).
Flash is a dying, clumsy dinosaur. Steve is just putting it out of it's misery.

I also remember how people cried and called the demise of Macintosh when Apple dropped the floppy drive and replaced SCSI with USB in 98. The outrage was all time... how did that turn out?

 

[J Davis]

I'm all for open source HTML5 but the theory doesn't account for certain practicalities.

Flash offers advertisers click thru data and interaction analysis for example a flash banner reports back how much time the mouse pointer is on what part of the banner. Advertisers are not going to give up that easily.

The la times site Jarred linked to does not show the cool looping flv vids on the iPad. Instead the page flips to an alternate with static images and a link to another page that offers h264 mpegs. The iPad lets quicktime take over and the browser steps back, the integration is fairly seemless on the iPad but you see this switch more easily on an iPhone.

Another strike working against HTML5 is it forces the browser to decode the codec instead of the plugin which means the browser is hit with the licensing issues of h264 instead of the flash plugin which has the license covered by adobe. Firefox and IE are not buying into that and between them they have most of the market share. So far all the sites I've seen are not dumping flash but are offering an alternate page for the iPhone/iPad. Even if the browsers were to subscribe to h264's patent then what of the future and future codecs? Is it profitable for the browser to pay out to every next codec that comes along? I'ts a strange and cunning move by apple to limit options instead of providing a better option.

Also Google is a huge player in HTML5 as the project is headed up by an apple-google partnership yet google chrome supports flash which goes contra to the point of pushing open source. It could really go in any direction at this stage.

 

[Peter Franzen]

i use firefox and it loops fine.. im sorry if i have mistaken just fyi

Ah, right. Sorry for the confusion-- the first link is to the Flash version. The video in the 2nd link (the blog post) is the HTML 5 version.

And yeah, J Davis is exactly right. I work in the online advertising field (the publishing side) and the advertisers aren't going to be ditching Flash any time soon. It is still superior in a lot of ways if you look at the animation, click/action tracking, and interactivity that it offers.

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

Awesome. Love the short loops. The images are so crispy clean.

 

[Marcus Irvin]

Flash is not going anywhere soon! - Marcus Irvin

Flash is not going anywhere soon! - Marcus Irvin

I'm all for open source HTML5 but the theory doesn't account for certain practicalities.

I agree as well. Let's not forget how big gaming is on the net and how Flash dominates in the gaming category. Does anyone believe people will stop playing games online? Can anyone name an online game written in SVG? I certainly can't.

We may be film centric on these forums, but kids spend more Net time gaming than they do watching films.

Personally, I hope both Flash and HTML5 succeed and I hope the IPad gets strong Flash-supporting competition soon. Competition is always best for us all.

Caveat:My opinion may be both biased and/or well-informed because I teach Flash in high school Multimedia and Webmastering classes.

Still waiting for my Full Name change,
Marcus Irvin

 

[Jason Hall]

That's something I've been playing around with for a while. Still a tad rough, but I like the proof of concept.

There are some tricky issues with doing it on the non-iPad web though. Firefox doesn't recognize the loop argument in HTML-5's "<video>" tag, Internet Explorer doesn't recognize <video> at all, and obviously the iPod/iPad don't work with Flash.

Plus, Firefox, Opera, and Chrome all have different encoding requirements for the video (Firefox can't do h.264 so an Ogg-Theora version plus additional markup needs to be added for it) so the simplest solution is still to use good old Flash and forget about the iPod/iPad.

I have a few more thoughts (and an HTML-5 version of that same clip) on my Vimeo Isn't Always the Answer blog post.

Peter, I'm curious - do you just import individual frames into a Flash timeline, or do you use a .flv for the loops? Seems too smooth to be the first option.

 

[Peter Franzen]

Jason,
It's just a simple .flv that I exported out of Premier.

Flash is something that I know very little about (from the development side) and it took a while for me to even figure out how to write an action script to get it to loop the way it is. I'm sure someone much smarter than me could do some clever buffering so that it doesn't have that black frame every time the .flv loops back to the beginning but I haven't figured out how to do it yet.

Like I said, it's just a basic proof of concept right now and I'm starting to think about how different subjects can be looped effectively without looking weird or awkward.

 

[Stuart Hooper]

I was impressed with all this talk of flash (not something that I know too much about), that I could walk into an Apple store, two days after it was released, and bring up Vimeo, Youtube, and a host of other sites and play any video I wanted.

 

[Greg Williams]

If any of you are interested I have posted a large JPG from my short film Tell-Tale taken from the prototype Epic footage that you can download. The color grade is for cinematic effect rather than to represent true skin tones. It has had some retouch but no sharpening. Many thanks to Jim and Jarred for letting me play with their amazing camera.
Greg
http://blog.gregwilliams.com/blog/5k-epic-still-file-tell-tale-download-full-size-file-jpg-7mb

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

HI Greg! Huge fan, thanks for sharing with us!

 

[Todd M.]

I agree as well. Let's not forget how big gaming is on the net and how Flash dominates in the gaming category. Does anyone believe people will stop playing games online? Can anyone name an online game written in SVG? I certainly can't.

We may be film centric on these forums, but kids spend more Net time gaming than they do watching films.

Personally, I hope both Flash and HTML5 succeed and I hope the IPad gets strong Flash-supporting competition soon. Competition is always best for us all.

Caveat:My opinion may be both biased and/or well-informed because I teach Flash in high school Multimedia and Webmastering classes.

Still waiting for my Full Name change,
Marcus Irvin

Sorry for being slight OT here, but it does relate. When every kid has an iPod Touch, iPhone or iPad they won't need web-based games anymore because they will pale in comparison. As witnessed in Apple's demo this morning there are about 7 1/2 times more games on the App Store than on both PSP and DS combined. 50,700 to be exact. As Jim says: "Everything is subject to change" and in my opinion, Flash is in REAL trouble. It's not going away, but it will certainly lose a boatload of marketshare over the next couple of years.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

I agree as well. Let's not forget how big gaming is on the net and how Flash dominates in the gaming category. Does anyone believe people will stop playing games online? Can anyone name an online game written in SVG? I certainly can't.

You can do pretty well with Javascript and Canvas - newer browsers even support OpenGL so you can make 3D games with it too.

But it doesn't matter for tablets because you can't really play flash games without at least a mouse, and usually also a keyboard. And trying to emulate a mouse would break the browsing controls (like is a double tap a double click, or does is the user trying to zoom in? When they swipe, are they intending to scroll the page, or dragging something in the flash applet?).

Not to mention that in terms of performance, Flash just sucks - have you seen videos of the JooJoo tablet trying to play flash videos? They're watchable in the smallest size on YouTube, but it gets really choppy if you watch the larger ones, and playing a 720p video in fullscreen is like watching a slideshow... And this tablet has a faster processor than the iPad! The JooJoo actually has a hack built in to play youtube videos directly from the video file instead, which like the iPad, works flawlessly.

 

[J Davis]

Not to mention that in terms of performance, Flash just sucks - have you seen videos of the JooJoo tablet trying to play flash videos? They're watchable in the smallest size on YouTube, but it gets really choppy if you watch the larger ones, and playing a 720p video in fullscreen is like watching a slideshow...

flash has nothing to do with playing videos, when a flv with the on2 codec plays thru the flash player no animations are happening, it is just straight codec number crunching from the processor

 

[Joel Kaye]

You can bet against Steve if you want, but your odds are rarely very good.

Hulu. A lot of people thought NBC was nuts on that one... but Hulu is a monster now. Why? Content rules. Not devices.

Flash supports h.264 last I checked... has that changed?
http://www.hulu.com/about/viewing_exp

A helluvalotta content like games, maps, tutorials, ads, database interfaces and other complicated content is done in flash. It's not getting reprogrammed for the iPad or iPhone.

The web is LOADED with info that is 10 years old now. It's valuable and not getting recoded. But phones and computers are ditched every two years. If Apple can gain market share like crazy in 2 years it's gotta be self evident a killer device from Motorola or Blackberry could do the same. My iPhone contract is up in a few months. Would I switch to something else? Why wouldn't I if it's better and is easy to switch?

Content stays and devices change.

 

[J Davis]

With flash video, flash acts as a shell using its player. The .flv is the container and the codec is on2. With flash player 10 and cs4 come a new container .f4v which holds h264 codec.