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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

"Knowing"...

NoahK said:
Question: Was it a budgetary decision?

Proyas: It wasn't, no. I mean, I kind of - we pretended that it was. But in fact, it probably actually cost us a little more when it was all said and done, because the shooting is obviously - you don't have film stock to pay for, but the editorial pipeline and the effects pipeline is so much more complicated. Because we're still working it all out. That the level of complexity built in, and the extra people that we've needed to make it all work, probably in the long run was a wash, you know?
-Noah
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If RED does not save any money over film, why go with RED? Expense is obviously in the post.
That explains why Sony is hesitant to introduce 4K cameras, until 4K workflow is ironed out.
 
LawrenceDinkins said:
If RED does not save any money over film, why go with RED? Expense is obviously in the post.
That explains why Sony is hesitant to introduce 4K cameras, until 4K workflow is ironed out.
Click to expand...

these guys went with red because they wanted the experience and didn't want to get left behind as productions go digital. it won't matter how great you are at lighting and working with traditional film about 5 years from now. digital workflows will be mature and fast enough to create some savings and cost concerns will mean that the guys with experience on cams like red will win jobs over old school guys.

expense is rarely in post. so long as productions are star driven, expense will always reside on the production side. a big studio doesn't care about film stock savings just like they don't care about small post workflow savings or added expenses. like he said, right now it's a wash either way because there's no difference between a $75 million budget and $76 million budget.
 
wigby said:
these guys went with red because they wanted the experience and didn't want to get left behind as productions go digital. it won't matter how great you are at lighting and working with traditional film about 5 years from now. digital workflows will be mature and fast enough to create some savings and cost concerns will mean that the guys with experience on cams like red will win jobs over old school guys..
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Maybe at some levels, but.... geee... sorry, this is just so far "out of the ball park" in this case... I'm sure a few of the smarter DOPs who read these threads are just shaking their heads in disbelief...
I felt moved to comment on this because I've only just sat in an early test film screening with "these guys" this afternoon... they know film, and they are understanding RED, and they are happy...
 
cws said:
Maybe at some levels, but.... geee... sorry, this is just so far "out of the ball park" in this case... I'm sure a few of the smarter DOPs who read these threads are just shaking their heads in disbelief...
I felt moved to comment on this because I've only just sat in an early test film screening with "these guys" this afternoon... they know film, and they are understanding RED, and they are happy...
Click to expand...


Couldn't agree more- crappy lighting is all the more painfully obvious in 4K as it is in DV. No excuses for it and if anything in 5 years lighting skills will be even more key because everything will be shot on 4K or better and the novelty of actually having a RED and knowing something about the workflow will be meaningless. Talent is talent.

Noah
 
wigby said:
these guys went with red because they wanted the experience and didn't want to get left behind as productions go digital. it won't matter how great you are at lighting and working with traditional film about 5 years from now. digital workflows will be mature and fast enough to create some savings and cost concerns will mean that the guys with experience on cams like red will win jobs over old school guys.

expense is rarely in post. so long as productions are star driven, expense will always reside on the production side. a big studio doesn't care about film stock savings just like they don't care about small post workflow savings or added expenses. like he said, right now it's a wash either way because there's no difference between a $75 million budget and $76 million budget.
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Following on from this and some earlier posts in this thread, I figured I would add my .02

I think the true transition to digital acquisition mediums will really come when the studios themselves are convinced that the quality is on par with film. When it comes to studio produced features, I have always found that familiarity, understanding and proven reliability is the single biggest argument for continuing to shoot with film (even if these aren't as clearly stated in that argument as they are here). You have to remember that the vast majority of theatrical features are financed and greenlit, by studios who ultimately want to ensure the financial success of the picture and don't want any added risk, like that of new "unproven" technology. These same people are the ones writing the Directors and DP's paychecks and there are very few Directors and DP's powerful enough to fight against the studio's wishes, which is why it's only big names like Fincher, Soderburgh (only on his small budget pics), Lucas, etc. who get to play with these new toys on the studio's dime.

RED is a fantastic step forward and could be the product that through mass adoption legitimizes the format in the studio's eyes. But outside of the indie realm, right now there are way too many dollars being spent and made off the traditional and entrenched players for a very swift transition away from the status quo.
 
NoahK said:
Question: How gratifying was it not only to see the director's cut of Dark City, but to see it in that format?
Proyas: Oh, well, it's amazing. I mean, we shot "Knowing" on these cameras, or these red cameras, these 4K digital cameras - the first time I actually shot digital. And it was great. I mean, they really are - the look of the film is fabulous. I was very excited by that. But, you know, it's terrific that we can - in our own homes now, we can play something that - off Blu-Ray, or whatever - that really closely approximates what the film actually - the quality of the film that was made.
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Well, have to disagree here. The BD of "Dark City" is a bad example for a BD that shows the film as it was made. I don't mean the recutting but the sharpening and the grain reduction. Now people walk around with white haloes and have waxy plastic faces. Looks awful.
(Addendum: Only parts of the transfer are processed like this, the rest looks fine.)
 
Just to add a little something, which has been said before many a time, but it is a quite different story when you see for YOURSELF what others have told you.

I saw the trailer for "Knowing" last night at the theater. A big, 60 ft/18m wide screen on a regular cineplex. I had seen it before on the Apple trailers where it looked good, as countless other RED footage has looked good on small screen versions, but it wasn't until last night I had a chance to see RED out there, in the real world, projected in the same medium, format and place it was ultimately meant for: a cinema. It was a pivotal point for me. The footage more than passed the test I had set up for it and put aside a lot of the fears I've had about things like REDCODE. It looked, plain and simple, like any other film would. And then better. It was clean, devoid of noise or grain (things I don't particularly like), the night time images had plenty of detail and no a lot of crushed blacks, and the daytime exteriors were vibrant, full of color and nice, very nice looking. Did it look like Lawrence of Arabia? No. But then again, many films shot on all kinds of stock never looked like that either, so for me, from this point on, the argument of whether RED can approximate or match or surpass film is irrelevant. You can use this camera to deliver a more than satisfactory result, one which will stand shoulder to shoulder to anything else, regardless of whether it is better or worse in certain aspects compared to other cameras. I was sold on the idea before, now I'm convinced.

Coincidentally, they also showed a trailer for "State of Fear", which is, I assume, a big production, featuring an ensemble with Russel Crowe, Ben Affleck, Helen Mirren, etc, which was shot on the Genesis. Now, the Genesis has produced some work that I particularly like, such as Apocalypto, but this trailer looked like it had been shot on Betacam. Skin tones were fluorescent pink and unreal, and the color patina and feel of the whole film felt way off to me. Which comes to show, once again, that it's all in how you manipulate the images after you acquire them where the make or break point really resides. RED looked better than anything else projected there that night.
 
There is no question that "Knowing" will be a showcase for what can be done on RED. It makes the point that if you aren't getting good images out of a RED ONE, it just might not be the camera's fault. :-)

Jim
 
Yeah, I saw the trailer on a big cinema screen and agree... it looked like any other film acquired on "film".

Which is good as it blends into the accepted "look" of what we expect (and like) from Hollywood mainstream cinema.

Benjamin Button had the same feeling for me... it looks really amazing... like film. Whatever the post workflow for the Viper (that Fincher uses on his films) is really good and produces filmic images.
 
Good to hear Rudy.
Thanks for the report.
When it looks good on the big screen, then...no doubt...IT'S GOOD.
Can't wait to see it !


...and i must admit that having this very same cinema camera here is even more impressive :)

Antoine
 
does anyone know which lenses were used for "knowing"?
 
Jan Reiff said:
does anyone know which lenses were used for "knowing"?
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Angenieux 24-290. Judging by production pic it looks like an entire set of Angenieuxs.
 
Saw the trailer for Knowing the other day at an IMAX screen in Times Square. Looks absolutely incredible. I agree with Rudi, the RED footage was better than anything else projected that night!
 
LawrenceDinkins said:
If RED does not save any money over film, why go with RED? Expense is obviously in the post.
That explains why Sony is hesitant to introduce 4K cameras, until 4K workflow is ironed out.
Click to expand...

The director was referring to this particular production. An existing company with existing money invested in existing pipelines took on the effect heavy post for this entirely RED feature. They had to get consultants, buy new gear and software, take a few swings to figure out where the ball is. Thats how it "was a wash." Change is hard and costs money. Once you change though...
 
J. Eric Camp said:
An existing company with existing money invested in existing pipelines took on the effect heavy post for this entirely RED feature. They had to get consultants, buy new gear and software, take a few swings to figure out where the ball is. Thats how it "was a wash."
Click to expand...
There's a couple of groups involved in post, all with significant feature b/g.
Edit had to define a process at the start, but got their setups worked out pretty quickly. From what I observed having a DIT familiar with RED on a project already was a big help in prep for edit.
FX, we had to make some adjustments for the fx pipeline to deal with r3d files and cross-facility processes, but the basics (equipment, tools, renderfarm, viewing environments etc) were already in place, and likewise the DI facilities' grading is being done on existing kit also.
Not so sure about the "new gear, software and consultants"... well, we all had to download redcine/redalert etc and work out how to understand and fit this new format into existing "film" workflows fairly quickly.... but that was happening anyway, much as I presume it was for most existing post houses.
It's been an interesting project that reflects the amount, and value, of communication that needs to take place between facilities, when several are working together on a large production.

Hopefully the end product speaks for itself.



cheers
Chris
 
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