"Knowing"...

[Christoffer Glans]

Can anyone link to a HD trailer... keep getting youtube quality.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

boy, has this thread ever gotten off-topic.... :ranting2:
maybe I'm just up to my ears in "Knowing" rushes and jump anytime I see the word in my emails :mail1:

Well, if it hadn't gone "off-topic" no one would be talking about the "on-topic" subject. :w00t:

 

[CinemaDP@aol.com]

Not all of Jumper, I shot some 35mm on that film.

 

[Filipo]

Not all of Jumper, I shot some 35mm on that film.

Red was the second unit?

 

[HD Bubaloo]

Michael
You would have a point about not being in bed with Sony if nobody had ever been to the Band Pro website or visited in person. Everyone knows Band Pro as a Sony house. Why bother pretending otherwise. Its silly. Does it show bias? Yes. But everyone is biased, just be real about it.

People here (some are fanboys clearly) get excited as it seems RED has put the others into a forced form of expedited change. Is it exaggerated excitement?, sure.

I suppose the fact that "the CTO of Band Pro" actually purchased a RED One personally after being in bed with Sony at Band Pro for many many years is interesting in itself. With your extensive background in the field (especially with Sony) you must have a lot of faith in the RED One to fork down 20K+ on it. Not after it had been in the field for a few years. Not after the kinks had been worked out. Rather, to jump right in and buy Camera #54 (an early adopter). RED was so new and unknown. Yet it was innovative, inexpensive, and had the ability to deliver quality on par or better than others. Maybe you are more of a believer than you portray. Or maybe you just have money to burn. Maybe you wanted to see what it can do in order to sell against it. I can't think of any CTO's or owners of rental houses who actually own a camera better than a AG-HVX200 outside of maybe the Clairmont brothers.

What was your motivation to buy??? And so early on?

 

[Hugues Wisniewski]

Scarlet will have ... more DR than a RED ONE (before upgrade)
Jim

Hi Jim,

Before upgrade, meaning before Build 16?
Build 16 did not really change the dynamic range so, that must be another upgrade. Maybe the future Monstro upgrade?
Is it also too early to mention the extent of the Scarlet sweet spot?
Thanks

 

[James Press]

I think Jim's referring to the MysteriumX sensor...

 

[CinemaDP@aol.com]

Yes Red was some but not all 2nd unit on Jumper.

 

[LawrenceDinkins]

Nope the HDC 500 was always a 1" 3CCD HDVS camera that was RETIRED in about 1989 or so.

Never said PL mount. PL Mount is a film camera lens mount and this was a 3CCD electronic camera with 3 1" CCDs a prism etc. There also was an HDC 300 which was 3 1" tubes. PL Mount film lenses were not appropriate lenses for this camera.

RED could sell 1 million cameras and it doesn't change the realities of how equipment is selected for producing features. UNLESS they destroy every existing film and digital camera, all the film stock along with Kodak and Fuji as companies and buy Sony Panasonic ARRI and Panavision just to close them down. Then POSSIBLY you would be correct. I doubt this is part of any plan by RED, however.

Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same.

Magical thinking about gear is fun, no doubt about that, but it has little or no effect on the reality of motion picture production.

Not knowing about something or failing to look into something doesn't make it not so. Keep in mind that fantastic, unreal situations belong in the script, not in discussions about technical issues regarding equipment.

Why isn't it enough that RED makes an interesting, popular and paradigm breaking tool that you chose to buy, support or use? The need for validation of ones choices in life through the destruction or diminuation of another's is immature and unprofessional in my view.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital

Sony/Panasonic/Canon etc have the technology today to put together a 4K or 8K or 64K camera. Many fabricators around the globe today are capable of making large size sensors. But, they do not have plans, as of today, to bring such cameras to market, as there is no demand for such devices.

Sony has given "lack of easy 4K post-workflow" as the reason for NOT bringing out 4K cameras.

RED is a 4K, PL mount, $17K, memory Card movie camera. (RED's unique features are in Bold). Though cumbersome, RED has a usable Post- workflow. Putting such high resolution camera in the hands of 10,000 or more DPs in USA would make it the de-facto standard. Just like VHS became standard even though Betamax was technically superior. It is all about market share.

RED could become de-facto standard in the near future. When it happens, the major studios and even Stven Spielberg will be forced to go RED way. Steven Spielberg has given "lack of proven track record" as reason for NOT using digital. This will change when 10000 DPs prove they can make quality pictures with RED. (Guerilla and Argentine were technical disappointments. But, soon there will be several technically superior RED movies out. For example, 'Manure'. )

Sony is a big company. They make their revenue from such popular items as PS3's. Movie cameras do not show up in their bottom lines. I checked with a reliable souce inside Sony: "as of today, Sony has no plans to bring out a 4K, PL mount, $17K camera." I believe this. Also I believe that RED will outsell all its competitors combined, in the near future.

 

[Jason Murphy]

Sony is a big company. They make their revenue from such popular items as PS3's. Movie cameras do not show up in their bottom lines. I checked with a reliable souce inside Sony: "as of today, Sony has no plans to bring out a 4K, PL mount, $17K camera." I believe this. Also I believe that RED will outsell all its competitors combined, in the near future.

Your point is well made, but just FYI, Sony's been losing money hand over fist on the PS3. The PS3 MIGHT break even or turn a profit this year, if things go really well for them...

 

[HD Bubaloo]

Steven Speilberg has made it clear since 2000 that until the last film lab shuts down he will shoot on film. You shouldn't use him as an example as his stance is very clear on the matter.

RED will never become a standard as its a brand and just one of many tools out there. Its popular and innovative and "hot" right now, but its not going to be adopted by everyone. This industry is not based on the standardization of anything. This is why we have many flavors of HD, SD, Film formats, frame rates, and aspect ratios.

Its all about choices and art. The technology does not make you an artist.

RED One is an amazing piece of technology. It allows for great filmmakers to present quality work at the highest quality for their money, on video. Unfortunately it also means we will be seeing a lot of crappy movies in ultra high resolution from not so great story tellers. You know, the people who make movies because they have the latest and greatest gear, rather than because they have a story to tell. The good story tellers out there will use whatever technology they can get their hands on for their budget and feature requirements. That may be 35mm, that may be RED One, that may be regular DV25.

 

[LawrenceDinkins]

I just heard that Samsung is working on a videocamera with 35 mm full size sensor. They have already introduced a cell phone with 8 megapixel camera and a pocket camera that record 720/24 p HD videos. So, the competition for RED may be coming from Samsung, not Sony.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

since when did samsung make anything pro?... no really?? what have they ever made thats in any way professional? monitors? nope even 2/3' semi pro video cams? nope hmmm well im sure if they do it will be firmly a 'video camera' as they have zero 'film' based mindset.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

actually they do make a mean washing machine , so a full frame sensor should be no problem Seriously tho Lawrence thanks for the heads up, it would be certainly an interesting step for them as they dont have a professional imaging reputation at all yet

 

[Carmel Bruno]

Michael
You would have a point about not being in bed with Sony if nobody had ever been to the Band Pro website or visited in person. Everyone knows Band Pro as a Sony house. Why bother pretending otherwise. Its silly. Does it show bias? Yes. But everyone is biased, just be real about it.

People here (some are fanboys clearly) get excited as it seems RED has put the others into a forced form of expedited change. Is it exaggerated excitement?, sure.

I suppose the fact that "the CTO of Band Pro" actually purchased a RED One personally after being in bed with Sony at Band Pro for many many years is interesting in itself. With your extensive background in the field (especially with Sony) you must have a lot of faith in the RED One to fork down 20K+ on it. Not after it had been in the field for a few years. Not after the kinks had been worked out. Rather, to jump right in and buy Camera #54 (an early adopter). RED was so new and unknown. Yet it was innovative, inexpensive, and had the ability to deliver quality on par or better than others. Maybe you are more of a believer than you portray. Or maybe you just have money to burn. Maybe you wanted to see what it can do in order to sell against it. I can't think of any CTO's or owners of rental houses who actually own a camera better than a AG-HVX200 outside of maybe the Clairmont brothers.

What was your motivation to buy??? And so early on?

personally, I always thought that one of the first buyers of the Red camera would be Sony... just to see how it works.

 

[Alex.Mitchell]

since when did samsung make anything pro?... no really?? what have they ever made thats in any way professional? monitors? nope even 2/3' semi pro video cams? nope hmmm well im sure if they do it will be firmly a 'video camera' as they have zero 'film' based mindset.

Look: I like Red. I like Jim. Red is cool. Jim is Cool! So don't get me wrong when I say this, but if someone can go from making sunglasses to making some of the best cameras in the biz, why couldn't Samsung? Let's face it: pretty much everyone owns a piece of electronics that Samsung has designed, so why put it past them? I doubt they'd do it, but after Red shipped those first cameras I'm having a hard time doubting much anymore.

 

[LawrenceDinkins]

personally, I always thought that one of the first buyers of the Red camera would be Sony... just to see how it works.

From people on the inside, I can tell you for sure, Sony never even considered RED to be a real anything. Sony has over 50 years of R&D in the video camera and broadcast business. They have all the technology that there is and patents to show for it. There is nothing in RED that Sony is eager to find. (Only thing they might want to reverse engineer is Jim's brain.)

RED does not use any unique or novel technology. Only thing Unique about RED is Jim's decision to put together a 4K, PL mount camera and market it through internet for $17K. Jim put his marketing savvy to work. That is all. (This is obviously an over simplification. Jim is a great businessman with enough personal knowledge of the technology.)

Sony or Panasonic or Canon could just as easily put together 4K, PL mount camera. But, they cannot market it for $17K because of several layers of middlemen. Also, they use controlled obsolecence: the same principle used by Big Three car companies to gradually introduce the new technology to maximise their product life and profitability. They will not bring forward an improved model until they have sold a fixed number of the previous model. Also, Sony bring forth fully tested products along with full range of accessories. For example, Sony will sell a camera with all accessories and software for video capture, edit, broad cast and display. On the other hand, RED sell only a camera body. Buyers will have to find everything else on their own.

Jim has boldly introduced his cheap cameras now and challenged Big Three in the Vido camera business. The Big Three cannot change their ways in a hurry to compete with RED. They are going to pay a big price for it in the market place. Just like IBM paid a big price when they under estimated the threat from Apple computer which was put together in a garage by Steve Jobs and company, using then available parts.

Jim is selling more cameras than all the other companies combined. That is why it is called a paradigm changing camera. At this rate every DP in the world will have a RED within 2 years. During that period, hopefully a 4k post workflow also will evolve.

Sony has already fabricated and tested super 35 and 65 mm size sensors, in 4k, 8K and even 16K versions and they already have developed several prototypes of movie cameras. But, they have no plans to bring a 4K-PL mount-$17K camera to market, as of today (apparently because 4K post work flow is not popular). They will definitely regret this. (F35 is using 2K compressed recording on tape, to be compatible with movie making folks and post houses.).

Within a few years, you will see the rise of RED as de facto standard in movie making.

Sony will continue to be king of the consumer market (for example EX1 and EX3) and broadcast market. Look, the entire Summer Olympics is going to be broadcast using Sony equipment. Sony has very specialized high power video cameras for sports events. Nobody can compete with them. You have seen how well these Sonys work during the European football matches: superior HD picture quality, fast replays, simultaneous broad view and closeup; clean slow motion replays; automatic continuous focus on the ball etc.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

My guess is that there is a three letter reason Sony all of a sudden is showing off F35 @ IBC 2008 and not @ IBC 2011.

That said, I don't think their cameradivision is sleeping bad at all. Broadcast is their mass market, and even though RED may penetrate that market, too - it won't take it over in the same way as they are doing with digital cinema cameras. The big change will come with Scarlet... @ least if they introduce an "easy as DV" workflow with it.

That's when Sony and Panasonic may see some hard hittin' on their sales statistics.

Just my 300000 cents

This is not to start a discussion about RED ONE as a broadcast camera...

 

[Daniel Browning]

Marketing Savvy builds cameras, not engineers!

Marketing Savvy builds cameras, not engineers!

RED does not use any unique or novel technology. Only thing Unique about RED is Jim's decision to put together a 4K, PL mount camera and market it through internet for $17K. Jim put his marketing savvy to work. That is all.

Yes! I can't believe there are so many here who have missed such an obvious fact. Jim clearly just slapped together a few off-the-shelf components. Where others were selling them for hundreds of thousands of dollars (silly corporations), Jim waved his Marketing Wand (TM) and combined it with the power of the intarweb net-tubes (Magically Delicious) to build it for $17K.

I could have built this camera for $7K in my sleep. Just look at how easy these features are.

* APS-C (Super35) at 30fps: others did it for over six figures.
* 4K (9.5 MP) resolution: DALSA, etc. for over six figures.
* 100fps at 2/3": Phantom can top that, again, for the big bucks.
* RAW 4K recording: Haul a refigerator around with your Origin, sure.
* RAW Wavelet: SI-2K+Cineform only does 2K. REDCODE is awesome.
* Record 288+ mbps to 16 GB compact flash.
* Modular: Any Lens mount. Sensor upgrades. Probably been done before.
* High sensitivity, low noise, good dynamic range: Sony has it for $150k.
* Inexpensive accessories: lenses, media, etc. Maybe not the first here.
* Free RAW post-production software: Probably been done before.
* 4-channel 24-bit audio: Many have that.
* World-class support: Talk to the billionaire owner at 3:00 AM.
* Small, lightweight, and single-person operation.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Your point is well made, but just FYI, Sony's been losing money hand over fist on the PS3. The PS3 MIGHT break even or turn a profit this year, if things go really well for them...

Not to mention the hundreds of millions they spent to bribe the studios into adopting Blu-Ray.

I don't see how they make all this back in the long run, but maybe they just really did NOT want to lose another epic format war.