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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

"Knowing"...

Finner said:
I think a good F23, F35, D21, genesis and Red test is in order as soon as build 16 is bullet proof.
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Sony cannot make a 3 CCD 35mm camera: Limitations of Physics.
F23 is the best 3 CCD they can make.
F35 is based on 1 CCD. But it is a concept camera. Sony has no plans to sell it for profit. (Who will buy at such high prices?)

D21 and Genesis are also kinda concpet cameras. They are over priced and they cannot sell many of them.
So, the market is left with only one clear leader: RED.

Under these circumstances, a comparison between F23, F35, Genesis and RED are unnecessary. For better or worse, within 2 years, Hollywood will use RED exclusively.

In the mean while, stop pushing in Jim's buttons by mentioning F23, Sony, etc.

The European Football matches were recorded mostly on Sony. Sony will be a continuing force in the broadcast business. However, RED has banished Sony from movie making arena.
 
just did that test....its quite something to see a million dollars worth of cameras and lenses strapped to a van, driving through downtown LA.
 
DanWood said:
Sony cannot make a 3 CCD 35mm camera: Limitations of Physics.
F23 is the best 3 CCD they can make.
F35 is based on 1 CCD. But it is a concept camera. Sony has no plans to sell it for profit. (Who will buy at such high prices?)

However, RED has banished Sony from movie making arena.
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Hmmmm Dan a few facts might help this discussion
1. Sony already had a 1" 3 CCD HD camera in 1985 the HDC500
2. If the F23 is the best they can make (which it is not) that ain't half bad
3. We already have several orders for F35 cameras and they don't ship till Sept
4. HUH? Between the Genesis, F23 and soon the F35, this statement is, hardly factual, totally unsupportable, and doesn't even makes any sense.

You might want to wait and see the test that Jeff is referring to, or maybe not.

I don't think JJ "worries" or gets his buttons pushed about the F23 OR F35, or any camera not made by RED :)

What I get is that YOU like RED and YOU think it's the only camera to shoot with.

BUT

Trust me in 2 years ALL movies in Hollywood will NOT be shot with RED or any digital camera for that matter. You might want to go see Batman "The Dark Knight" to understand only one reason why.

Sure it's conceivable that many may be shot on RED but not even a majority. This statement comes from a basic and fundamental understanding of how equipment for Hollywood features is selected.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital
 
Michael Bravin said:
4. HUH? Between the Genesis, F23 and soon the F35, this statement is, hardly factual, totally unsupportable, and doesn't even makes any sense.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital
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I believe what he meant was for the PRICE of Sony's cameras, the Scarlet and Red have no competition...what is the price of the F35, and Genesis?
 
Joseph
Not sure what he "really" meant but what he really wrote about F35 was:
But it is a concept camera. Sony has no plans to sell it for profit. (Who will buy at such high prices?

It's not a concept camera and Sony, like RED, like many on this list, is in business to make money so of course they plan on selling it for profit. Those who need an F35 will buy it. Smart successful business people who's business it is to rent high end, high performance motion picture production equipment, many who also own RED ONE and will probably own Epic. Sony will not sell thousands of F35s but there are already couple hundred F23's in the market now and it shipped AFTER RED ONE was available. The Genesis is not for sale but there are probably over 50 on features and commercials and TV shows as I type this.

The RED one is a fantastic, paradigm changing tool. It does some amazing things. It is not a replacement for ALL serious production tools. To claim this does nothing to enhance the camera itself and only identifies the claimant as being naive, thoughtless, or inexperienced in their craft.

David Mullen, who is a big supporter of RED has posted many times on these lists the reality of the RED ONE as a Cinematographer's tool, among MANY in a professional and competent DP's toolkit. David is a professional craftsman and artist as well as a very accomplished cinephile and film buff. Worth listening to.

Rant Off

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital
 
Mr. Bravin is one smart dude. I'll tell you that much.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Bravin at BandPro in 2005 just before we shot a project on the F900 (we rented through Jeff Bleauvelt over at HDCINEMA). Mr. Bravin's advise on how best to yield the F900 was immeasurable and our project was definitely the better for it. Although he won't remember me, he definitely left an impression on me and my DP.

His participation on this board is as valuable as is David Mullen's.

Just my opinion.
 
Sony 4K camera.

Sony 4K camera.

The same Sony team that developed the F23 and the F35 is developing a Sony 4K camera. I hope to see a prototype by NAB 2009. I will bet you a cup of coffee!
 
laperal@info.com.ph said:
The same Sony team that developed the F23 and the F35 is developing a Sony 4K camera. I hope to see a prototype by NAB 2009. I will bet you a cup of coffee!
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Wonder if it will be "upgradeable for life"?
 
Michael Bravin said:
Hmmmm Dan a few facts might help this discussion
1. Sony already had a 1" 3 CCD HD camera in 1985 the HDC500
2. If the F23 is the best they can make (which it is not) that ain't half bad
3. We already have several orders for F35 cameras and they don't ship till Sept
4. HUH? Between the Genesis, F23 and soon the F35, this statement is, hardly factual, totally unsupportable, and doesn't even makes any sense.

Sure it's conceivable that many may be shot on RED but not even a majority. This statement comes from a basic and fundamental understanding of how equipment for Hollywood features is selected.
Click to expand...

Isn't HDC 500 a 1/3" surveillance camera?

35mm prism block for 3ccd will hardly fit the rear element of most 35mm PL lenses, without destroying image quality. That is the limitations of physics.

prediction of RED taking over Hollywood in 2 years is a general statement to indicate a trend. If Jim can sell tens of thousands of REDs, the RED will become de facto standard. In 2 years, Jim will sell ten thousand cameras. That is more than all the cameras sold by all competition in the movie market.

Can Sony/Panasonoc/canon put together a 4K or 8K camera today? Yes. But they have no plans to, as of now.
 
Magical Thinking

Magical Thinking

LawrenceDinkins said:
Isn't HDC 500 a 1/3" surveillance camera?

35mm prism block for 3ccd will hardly fit the rear element of most 35mm PL lenses, without destroying image quality. That is the limitations of physics.

prediction of RED taking over Hollywood in 2 years is a general statement to indicate a trend. If Jim can sell tens of thousands of REDs, the RED will become de facto standard. In 2 years, Jim will sell ten thousand cameras. That is more than all the cameras sold by all competition in the movie market.

Can Sony/Panasonoc/canon put together a 4K or 8K camera today? Yes. But they have no plans to, as of now.
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Nope the HDC 500 was always a 1" 3CCD HDVS camera that was RETIRED in about 1989 or so.

Never said PL mount. PL Mount is a film camera lens mount and this was a 3CCD electronic camera with 3 1" CCDs a prism etc. There also was an HDC 300 which was 3 1" tubes. PL Mount film lenses were not appropriate lenses for this camera.

RED could sell 1 million cameras and it doesn't change the realities of how equipment is selected for producing features. UNLESS they destroy every existing film and digital camera, all the film stock along with Kodak and Fuji as companies and buy Sony Panasonic ARRI and Panavision just to close them down. Then POSSIBLY you would be correct. I doubt this is part of any plan by RED, however.

Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same.

Magical thinking about gear is fun, no doubt about that, but it has little or no effect on the reality of motion picture production.

Not knowing about something or failing to look into something doesn't make it not so. Keep in mind that fantastic, unreal situations belong in the script, not in discussions about technical issues regarding equipment.

Why isn't it enough that RED makes an interesting, popular and paradigm breaking tool that you chose to buy, support or use? The need for validation of ones choices in life through the destruction or diminuation of another's is immature and unprofessional in my view.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital
 
Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required. Maybe you can give smaller doses however, as you come off as an A-Hole rather than the know-it-all you want people to think you are. Rather than pretending that nobody on this site actually works in this business except for you, maybe you can just say "hey, this is a great camera and its another tool to add into the mix" and leave it at that.

"Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same."

Interesting Michael that YOU know what Panasonic may or may not be doing. Very insightful.
 
"Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required."

I wanted to clarify that. Due to the nature of your Sony business, your smug abrasive posts are probably required due to the reality of who you work for and your pushing a competing product. Oh right, they aren't competing in your world.
 
That seems a bit extreme.

RED has undoubtedly shaken up the industry. At least the indy scene. I, personally, can't wait to get my hands on one to shoot a project with.

But the reality is that older, die-in-the-wool, cinematographers are just as brand loyal as RED enthusiasts. The minute Panavision announces a 4K version of the Genesis you're going to see at least HALF of all these cinematographers stick with Panavision. They know them. They like them. They've got a long term established relationship. They like their toys. It's familiar. Trust me, once Panavision pronounces they too have a 4K solution (regardless if it's worse than RED) they'll be happy that there's an "alternative" to RED so they can stick with what they know.

I know this mentality sucks. But it's here.
 
HD Bubaloo said:
Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required. Maybe you can give smaller doses however, as you come off as an A-Hole rather than the know-it-all you want people to think you are. Rather than pretending that nobody on this site actually works in this business except for you, maybe you can just say "hey, this is a great camera and its another tool to add into the mix" and leave it at that.

"Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same."

Interesting Michael that YOU know what Panasonic may or may not be doing. Very insightful.
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Bubaloo

My comments were not directed at most of those on this list who are professional sensible rational intelligent thoughtful people. There are thousands of people who read and post here who I was not directing my comments to.

I also am not a know it all. I am a professional with many years experience and frankly like many professional people who read and post here do not understand the tenor or content of many of the posts here on REDUSER that include statements like within 2 years all Hollywood features will be shot on RED or that RED will put ARRI or Panavision or Sony out of business.

Those who know me know I am direct and do not suffer stupidity or foolishness, may be a fault I don't know. To those who ARE foolish and silly in their comments and think I am an A hole I really could care less.

If I offended anyone who isn't in that group I sincerely appologize.

I do not work for Sony and I am not required to behave any specific way. We do not sell the competition to RED we sell into the same markets and we sell to people who own RED ONE and other tools along with some who own Sony cameras. I personally bought a RED camera #54.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital
 
HD Bubaloo said:
Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required. Maybe you can give smaller doses however, as you come off as an A-Hole rather than the know-it-all you want people to think you are. Rather than pretending that nobody on this site actually works in this business except for you, maybe you can just say "hey, this is a great camera and its another tool to add into the mix" and leave it at that.

"Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same."

Interesting Michael that YOU know what Panasonic may or may not be doing. Very insightful.
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I don't think Michael was being abrasive or smug at all. Frankly given who he is and what he does for a living, I find his posts here very valuable.

Greg
 
boy, has this thread ever gotten off-topic.... :ranting2:
maybe I'm just up to my ears in "Knowing" rushes and jump anytime I see the word in my emails :mail1:
 
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