KETCH ROSSi Cine Style Shooting Epic M8

[Steve Gibby]

Tom and Ketch,

I like the locations you went too! I've shot at both the Salton Sea and Joshua Tree many times. Looks like you guys had fun out there with Epic M8!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Hey Steve, you are right for this shoots we did choose a Hybrid EFP style set up, and this is why I said in the Title KETCH ROSSi Cine Style shooting,
as I don't just let the rules of Cinematography be applied, but I use any set up as best fits the need of each individual shoot, and as you said since
I do use Cinema Equipment that makes it Cine Style, but I have come to also appreciate your EFP style and for this I make the best of each set up
also based on the experience form your Experience he he.

And yeah Salton Sea and Joshua Tree are great locations but Salton Sea was a bit over the Medical allowance for me do to the high Bacteria there,
didn't know that before I went, Michael actually called me first with concern and the Doctors Screamed at me last night about having been there,
oh well, I'm fine so all is good, and hopefully we got some great shots out of it even so the lighting unfortunately was not at hits best that day ;(

 

[AnthonyFlores]

"Cine style" is just that - a style of shooting, with a tendency toward its own lenses, accessories, and crew compositions - just as in "EFP style". But don't assume that images shot EFP style can't look cinematic in aesthetics. The big differentiation between EFP style and cine style shooting isn't necessarily about frame rates, but mostly about the different techniques of focusing (EFP is eye focusing by shooter, cine is by measurements, then focusing done by an AC), accessories (hand racked lens barrel and screw-on filters in EFP, FF and MB with cine), exposure (zebras and histogram with EFP, hand meters and sometimes histogram with cine), lenses (usually cine with cine, usually 35mm still or B4 2/3" with EFP), and crew (shooter doing all camera functions with EFP, split camera functions with cine between shooter and AC).

Again, horses for courses. Each style is generally better for certain genres of production and delivery medium. In essence, the two styles are techniques and setups to capture the needed aesthetic properties expected by the intended audience. To do either style well good takes a lot of practice - and neither is "better" - they're just different approaches which are appropriate for the genres serviced.

So what style are you're seeing in these photos of Tom and Ketch at Salton Sea and Joshua Tree? The minimal amount of accessories, lightweight setup, doing their own focusing by eye, etc, are very indicative of mobile EFP setups and shooting style. That said, they're using cine lenses and frame rates - so my take on that would be to classify their style of shooting in those pics as "mobile hybrid EFP". I shoot a ton of is hybrid mobile EFP too - with the main difference being that I use 35mm still lenses almost exclusively on Red One and will on Epic once the Canon, Nikon, and Red Electronic mounts start shipping.

One of the really cool things about Epic is that it can be setup quickly to shoot either style! Set the camera up, accessorize it the way you need, choose your lens - and away you go.

For those of us who shoot all three - EFP style, cine style, stills - Epic is an incredibly diverse and capable camera system.

To summarize, there are a lot more factors to getting cinematic images than frame rate - and with the natural "organic" look of Red footage its really hard not to shoot cinematic images no matter what style you shoot and/or lenses you use.

Steve, would you say that most documentaries tend to shoot much more in EFP style? (as you have been nice enough to define it)

In one sense, the answer is obvious because there would be no timing/measuring the actors with focus marks, etc. But still, I could see the many documentary filmmakers using "hybrid" style at times with cine lenses and an FF ... OR like you often do with still lenses that are eye-focused.

I ask because given yours and Ketch's respective approaches, I'm curious how you guys will approach the Italia Mia documentary and how the different styles might blend, whether still/cine lens footage will be intercut, etc.

Thanks in advance for the info

Anthony

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Steve, would you say that most documentaries tend to shoot much more in EFP style? (as you have been nice enough to define it)

In one sense, the answer is obvious because there would be no timing/measuring the actors with focus marks, etc. But still, I could see the many documentary filmmakers using "hybrid" style at times with cine lenses and an FF ... OR like you often do with still lenses that are eye-focused.

I ask because given yours and Ketch's respective approaches, I'm curious how you guys will approach the Italia Mia documentary and how the different styles might blend, whether still/cine lens footage will be intercut, etc.

Thanks in advance for the info

Anthony

Hi Anthony I can answer this one for you

ITALiA MiA will be the first DocuFilm Series ever done by any other Country and will have lots of weight on other similar projects to come,
we wil do extensive tests, including 3D, but if we choose 3D it could be that we go with SCARLETT/NEUTRON 3D rigs.

As far as shooting Styles it will be a mixture of both, but it is because of his unique approach that I chose to bring Steve Gibby on Board of this
very important project, obviously the fact that He has so much experience and He has been given so many Awards, is icing on the cake
Hybrid EFP and Cine Style will intercut form my crew and Steve's crew as we will be shooting each our own unit,
and I believe that this is one of our strongest points in our Alliance, will make for a great and interesting piece at the ned, Extensive and well
documented BTS will off course be filmed daily of the entire project, set to be released in 12 Blue Rays.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Steve, would you say that most documentaries tend to shoot much more in EFP style? (as you have been nice enough to define it)

In one sense, the answer is obvious because there are timing the actors with focus marks, etc. But still, I could see the many documentary filmmakers using "hybrid" style at times with cine lenses and an FF ... OR like you often do with still lenses that are eye-focused.

I ask because given yours and Ketch's respective approaches, I'm curious how you guys will approach the Italia Mia documentary and how the different styles might blend, whether still/cine lens footage will be intercut, etc.

Thanks in advance for the info

Anthony

With Red One, which I've done a lot of documentary shooting, and with Epic, which, I'll also do a lot of documentary shooting, yes, I'd classify the usual approach to doing docs with these cameras mobile hybrid EFP production. In the world of docs, there is great diversity. A wildlife documentary obviously doesn't have necessarily any "actors" per se - and wild animals aren't cued to hit marks. But its a documentary never the less.

In EFP style production (EFP means "Electronic Field Production") we routinely shoot with talent on camera, and also actors. But it is using electronic cameras (as opposed to traditional manual film cameras), and focusing is done by the operator by hand on the fly by racking the lens barrel - no AC or focus puller. In documentaries of any genre, mobility is critical, so rigs are kept lightweight, crews are small, and all camera functions are necessarily done by the shooter (focusing and exposing included).

More stationary documentary shooting may be done with the heavier cine lenses, MB, FF, etc., but for most docs mobility is critical - and the heavier weight and bulk of cine lenses and accessories really limits mobility - thus you can't get a lot of those really cool shots you want and need.

I see to many young "filmmakers" (who aren't shooting film by the way!) feeling the need to fit in with traditionalist peer pressure by feeling the need to absolutely use cine lenses, matte boxes, and follow focuses on cameras - and then they wonder why they can't be real mobile in their work - when logic would quite often determine that they could get those mobile shots they want and need by using mobile hybrid EFP camera setups, 35mm still lenses, and EFP shooting techniques.

Also in docs and other related mobile genres of production, we frequently need to shoot in "guerrilla" mode - flying beneath the radar to get mobile spontaneous images quickly - and big, accessory laden camera setups, with big crews simply don't work for that. Again - horses for courses.

There is no "right" way to lens, accessorize, and shoot Red One and Epic - but there is a "right" way for each shot sequence, genre, and day's shooting.

As for Ketch's Italy production - that's Ketch's production, not mine, so he can answer most of the questions for that. I'll just be a hired gun for those productions. But for the shot sequences where mobility and small crew setups are needed, you can bet I'll be shooting with a small, mobile camera setup, using 35mm still lenses, Red Volt batteries in the hand grip and bottom grip, screw-on filters, a short shotgun on the camera for ambient audio, and a small dual wireless system for quick interviews, etc. But you can also rest assured that my images will be cinematic and cut seamlessly with the other cinematic beauty and mood montages of the programs.

I've done tourism and travel oriented productions throughout my career - in many areas of the world. They require shifting gears from shooting fast and furious action to a slower style of production for aesthetic mood montages. As Ketch has said, to effectively shoot and produce tourism oriented programming with Red One and Epic, it requires a synthesis of shooting styles, techniques, and equipment setups. Each day you match the lenses, accessories, and style to the particular needs of what you're shooting that day. Then when you get to cutting the show, you have all the necessary pieces to do justice to the tapestry you want to weave to really tell the story about that country and each area of it.

Me and Pam are very much looking forward to teaming up with Ketch on this Italy production! I've traveled and worked in 70 countries in my life - and in many of them Pam has worked with me. To help portray the beauty and diversity of Italy will be a unique and rewarding opportunity for us. We look forward to it...

 

[Tom Lowe]

Here's another shot of this beautiful camera. That's Ketch's 18mm Master Prime.
:w00t:

I'm not going to jump too much into this "cine style" debate. It occurs to me that "cine style" is just a state of mind, more than anything technical. I would definitely categorize "Baraka" as cine style. It's the style of which I am a disciple.

 

[Steve Gibby]

It occurs to me that "cine style" is just a state of mind, more than anything technical. I would definitely categorize "Baraka" as cine style. It's the style of which I am a disciple.

I am a great fan of Baraka too! You and me share that common pedigree, though I'm not known as a time lapse specialist. I really like the results you've been getting. If you check through my Red stock footage library you'll find that my shots are highly cinematic too. Besides you doing much more timelapse than me, in our approach to Red One (and Epic) we seem to differ in that I tend to use almost all 35mm still lenses, and occasionally cine lenses, but If I have it figured right, on Red you now prefer to use a lot of cine lenses, and occasionally 35mm still lenses. All shooters pick the glass they feel best fits into their field workflow - and they should.

I'd say "style" is embodied in the techniques someone uses when shooting with a camera system, and "cine" refers to equipment. If they use some traditional cine equipment - such as cine lenses - but the techniques they manually operate the camera with are to focus and expose themselves (no AC or focus puller), then that camera setup and the technique they are using clearly fits the definition of hybrid EFP production. They are still capable of getting great cinematic images - they just arrive at those images by alternate style techniques. there is no shame in that, and if some traditional cine style shooters, who use all cine equipment, techniques, and crew compositions look down on hybrid or straight EFP as being somehow "2nd class", then IMO that's their problem.

The bottom line is getting great cinematic images which satisfy clients, networks, and distribution outlets - and more importantly the intended audience. On moderate budgets, and with a hybrid approach that saves funds - "a penny saved is a penny earned" - stunning images can be achieved - and yes someone who approaches their shooting that way is still a cinematographer, no matter what some traditionalists may think.

With cameras like Red One, and now especially Epic and Scarlet, the old clear cut traditionalist lines of demarcation between the cine and EFP industries are disappearing rapidly - then we also add in the massive DSLR influence and similar utility on Epic and Scarlet, and the transition paradigm is in full motion. If this new Red equipment is defined as "DSMC", and draws huge amounts of its basic technology from DSLR and EFP camera systems, then IMO its high time we quit defining ourselves as strictly aligning with the bickering camps of the media imaging industry, and be Renaissance people who define themselves as a "shooter", who can when the occasion arises be a photographer, cinematographer, and yes, that somehow painful word "videographer".

Again Tom, I'm a great fan of Baraka. Koyaanisqatsi was one of my favorite movies ever. Like you I consistently seek to generate thought-provoking cinematic images - but by using alternate camera setups and techniques. I really like your style of shooting - it works for the statements you seek to make with your images. That's the reason why several months ago I invited you to stop by my ranch in southern Utah (guess you couldn't make it) to go out to do some shooting with me and Pam. Your interesting work is also why I supported Ketch providing you some stick time with Epic M8.

Its all good - whatever you choose to call your style, its working

 

[Florian Stadler]

I think "cine style" shooting does not refer to the stylistic quality of the final image acquired but to the way it was acquired and with what intent. "Cine Style" refers to images acquired in the traditional setup used to film rehearsed actors moving about a controlled environment to tell a narrative story intended for cinema distribution.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Yeah, Steve, I was bummed to have missed you in Utah! Ketch mentioned maybe getting a chance to shoot with you next time you are down south.

I think the important point you are making is that cameras like Epic completely blur (and eliminate?) the line between Cine and EFP. For example, in 1992 you could have seen Ron Fricke shooting BARAKA on a 65mm 5-perf camera and said to yourself, "Okay, he's on a 65mm camera, so he's a Cine shooter." Not so anymore. Red One and Epic changed that. That's why I say, at this point, "Cine" is more a state of mind than anything else, at least IMHO. Believe me, as soon as I can use my Canon lenses on Epic, I will!

 

[Steve Gibby]

I totally agree Tom...

In 2009 some of my 4k Red wildlife footage was taken through the Lowry processing in L.A., output to 65mm film, and projected on a giant screen for an audience of studio executives interested in releasing wildlife features.

Their reaction? "Beautiful images! What camera was that shot on?". When told it was a Red One, the reaction was "Very interesting...". The next question from them was "What type of lens was used?". When told it was an 18-year old stock Canon FD 150-600. their reaction was again "Hmm, very interesting...". I don't relate this story to pat my own back - but to illustrate the potential with well-shot, cinematic images with Red cameras and 35mm still lenses. Now, let's imagine 5k Epic images taken through the same process, output to 65mm film, and projected on the giant screen - the future is here now gents.

Before digital cinema cameras arrived on the scene, tons of non-narrative cine style production was done in 16mm and 35mm film - wildlife and nature being some examples. Fast forward to the present. With Epic (and soon with Scarlet), cost-effective hybrid style production is now something readily available to anyone who can afford the cameras and has the skill sets and open mind to do it.

Ron Fricke was way ahead of his time...a true visionary...one of my heroes.

 

[Steve Gibby]

First there was EFP/ENG and Cine.... now there is KRS. Years from now people will be discussing... what is the best build for my Red to shoot Ketch Rossi Style?

Actually there has been HS done with Red cameras since 2007 - Hybrid Style. I first pioneered hybrid style production with a Red camera - with my Red One 0008 in September 2007, using a prototype Nikon mount, and my collection of Nikon lenses. Lots of shooters have jumped on that bandwagon since then - because its practical, cost-effective, and mobile - but still has the potential to give you great cinematic images with Red.

Yes, now there's also KRS (Ketch Rossi Style), which is a combination of cine style, DSLR style, hybrid style, and a tad bit of mobile EFP style

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I think "cine style" shooting does not refer to the stylistic quality of the final image acquired but to the way it was acquired and with what intent. "Cine Style" refers to images acquired in the traditional setup used to film rehearsed actors moving about a controlled environment to tell a narrative story intended for cinema distribution.

+1.

It seems the cinematic image that results from either approach is getting confused with they style / approach of how it was recorded. EFP and Cine both have their places, and can both deliver cinematic images, but how they did that is extremely different ...

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Steve,

I've mentioned this on other threads but thought I get your thoughts on this as well ...

Given your affinity for still lenses, I really hope you get a chance to use the Leica S lenses on your Epic someday. (Once Red makes the mount. I think Ketch will be getting them at some point. Me too.) Obviously, they are not quite as fast (f2.5) as many 35mm still lenses, but everything I've heard is that optically they are among the best still lenses ever produced.

And with their smooth mechanics and amazing build quality, seems like they've be perfect for your style of shooting

This is not to knock anything that anyone has done with Canon or Nikon, especially not you -- I'm a big fan of your work, it's gorgeous.

But it seems like one of the things that you pay for with Cine lenses -- in addition to size of glass, housings, mechanics, focus marks -- is often a higher level of optical quality (though it may be indistinguishable to most) ... and with the Leica S, you get that.

(I feel a bit weird saying this, since I'm sure there's pretty much nothing I could tell you about cameras/lenses that you don't already know or have heard in your years ... just bringing up a basic point.)

I guess I'm just saying that everything I've read and seen regarding Leica S glass is that it's unbelievable -- no CA, perfect performance wide open, perfect performance into the corners, capable of resolving extremely high levels of resolution, etc.

On the downside, they are expensive -- at roughly $5,000-7,000 per lens.

But given how you take care of your gear and their performance, could be a worthwhile investment for you and your productions.

Would love to hear your thoughts

Anthony

 

[Steve Gibby]

Florian and Ryan,

Yup I have a real clear handle on the difference in production styles - read my Post #83. I learned cine style production in 16mm back in the '70's, then moved by choice to EFP production in the early '80's.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Anthony,

I'm a big fan of Leica lenses - the glass and mechanics are excellent. That said, if you analyze the genres of production I work in (alternative sports, adventure travel, wildlife, music, nature, documentaries, etc.), those those genres require the use of zooms almost exclusively, rather than primes. Walking to each successive framing in the genres I work in could cause me to lose a lot of shots, get me injured, or even get me killed. I use zooms as variable primes, re-framing, shooting, re-framing, shooting, etc.

As much as I like Leica lenses, they simply don't make the zooms with the wide variety of focal ranges that I need - but Canon and Nikon do.

When Red makes their new electronic mount and electronic zooms, I'll adopt them quickly. I believe they will be fast, have very fast motors, will be optimized in glass and electronics for the interface with Epic and Scarlet, have a wide range of focal lengths, and be affordable considering their probably high quality. I'm anticipating Red will make a wide zoom, and mid zoom, a mid-to-long zoom, and hopefully a mid to real long zoom (75-400?). Once Red makes those zooms I'll adopt them and still keep my Canon and Nikon zooms for when I want their particular look.

Don't assume that I don't like primes, that I don't know how to shoot with them, and don't know how to shoot cine style - nothing could be further from the truth on each count. I own several primes and do specialty shots with them regularly. But I work in the genres I work in by choice, and the fact is to get the proper range of images quickly and safely definitely requires zooms rather than primes - and especially lightweight zooms for increased mobility.

None of the television networks I produce and direct programs for, much less the audiences for my programs, have ever complained about the quality of the images from me and my crew's use of Canon and Nikon lenses in my productions

I simply pick the right tool for the genres I work in, and the delivery medium. But others needs may naturally be different...

------------

This my my paisano Ketch's thread - and my intention wasn't to mire it in a deep discussion over cine vs hybrid, vs EFP. I've made my thoughts clear and stated my case. To each their own on equipment choices, lenses, and accessories, There are no universally right choices - just better choices for each style or genre you need to shoot in that particular day. The trick is not to fit square pegs in square holes, and round pegs in round holes - not vice versa.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Steve,

don't worry buddy, I always have enjoy your posts and continue to do so, and actually this discussions are
totally in line and on topic of what this thread is part of.

My Style comes form many years of Photography work dealing with both 35mm cameras as well as MF large format
Cameras, and now with EPIC in my hands everything has changed for good

I will share in this thread what I do and how I will do it, using the EPIC and its line of accessories together with well
known Cinema Gear such as the MAster Primes and other high end equipment, but it is my intention not to let my self
get cut up in the Hollywood way of multiplying the budget and the gear and or crew just because, this will never happen,
and in this I have come to truly appreciate your Hybrid style of mobility, and will take important learned points to facilitate
and enrich my shooting experiences

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Today will be shooting with the Insane New RED SHOULDER RIG

 

[Paul Leeming]

Wow, that quick-release system looks outstanding! I love how you can attach the small adaptor plate to Epic and just leave it there, then click on the main baseplate portion. Looks like the new tightening screws are more solid than the current gen as well.

Thanks for the picture!

Cheers from Tokyo,

Paul

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thing of beauty, isn't it

Early last year I briefly tested out a prototype of that new shoulder rig, with a dummy Epic body and lens mounted on it. Once I had the rig adjusted, with the chest and back pads set right, I walked around the room slowly with the rig on my shoulder - completely hand free!

IMO this new shoulder rig will open many minds to the concept of comfort and good ergonomics in a shoulder mount system. :thumbup1:

Ketch, it just dawned on me that you'll be showing up on that Ferrari shoot today with a "Ferrari" of a camera system and setup too

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Drool at that support system! Let's see it with a brick for counter balance please. Let us know how it felt after the full day.

Thanks!