Cristian Nicolescu
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JVC DLA-RS35 for FILMOUT GRADING?
- Thread starter Ido Karilla
- Start date
Barend Onneweer
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Hi everyone,
I collected some data for you today:
When targetting P3, I’ve got the DCI filter in the lightpath and at high-lamp mode I get 14.5 ftl (this is without the LUT in the Davio so I’m losing a bit more light after the calibration.). With these settings black is measured at 0.01 cd/m2 (0.002fL).
This is with a matte white, 1.0 gain screen.
Just for quick reference, I set the projector to its THX mode which is supposed to be closer to Rec709. It’s a quick cheat because I didn’t have time to go through full greyscale calibration on the projector.
This is without the DCI filter in the lightpath.
At normal lamp I measured black at 0.001 fL and white at 13fL although at 7420K, so more calibration would drop the white point a bit, but this is at normal lamp mode.
The THX setting at high lamp mode I got blacks at 0.002 fL and whites at 19.6 fL at 7050K.
This is with 300 hours on the lamp by the way so I don’t imagine lasting longer than a 1000 hours on a lamp, possibly less. But this should just be calculated into the budgets for projects.
Looking at the generic film profiles that come with Cinespace, the most saturated greens and blues are out of gamut for this projector, not unlike when targetting P3. One would have to do an actual film-out and compare to check but I know of posthouses that are happily using the JVC HD750 and 950 for grading to film profiles so the RS-60 shouldn’t do any worse. Like I said earlier, we were really happy with the result when targetting P3.
Evangelos: good points about archiving.
To adress Steve’s points:
I saw a difference in the deepest shadow behaviour between a 1000 point profile and a 4000 point profile. Possibly user error so I’d have to check again. I acknowledge you have significantly more experience on this end than I do.
Also to avoid misunderstandings: I never meant to imply that Lightspace was less accurate than Cinespace – just that I thought Rory was comparing the duration of a 1000 patch profile to a 4000 patch profile… Cinespace does the 1000 patch profile in less than 50 minutes but like I said I saw a difference. During this project I stuck with a full cube profile to rule out any problems on that end.
For me this projector performed like I hoped. I’ve also looked at the Projectiondesign Cineo 32 but I can’t stand the rainbow effect of single-chip DLP’s, and their 3-chip DLP is in a completely different ballpark.
Hope this is useful information for some of you.
Barend
I collected some data for you today:
When targetting P3, I’ve got the DCI filter in the lightpath and at high-lamp mode I get 14.5 ftl (this is without the LUT in the Davio so I’m losing a bit more light after the calibration.). With these settings black is measured at 0.01 cd/m2 (0.002fL).
This is with a matte white, 1.0 gain screen.
Just for quick reference, I set the projector to its THX mode which is supposed to be closer to Rec709. It’s a quick cheat because I didn’t have time to go through full greyscale calibration on the projector.
This is without the DCI filter in the lightpath.
At normal lamp I measured black at 0.001 fL and white at 13fL although at 7420K, so more calibration would drop the white point a bit, but this is at normal lamp mode.
The THX setting at high lamp mode I got blacks at 0.002 fL and whites at 19.6 fL at 7050K.
This is with 300 hours on the lamp by the way so I don’t imagine lasting longer than a 1000 hours on a lamp, possibly less. But this should just be calculated into the budgets for projects.
Looking at the generic film profiles that come with Cinespace, the most saturated greens and blues are out of gamut for this projector, not unlike when targetting P3. One would have to do an actual film-out and compare to check but I know of posthouses that are happily using the JVC HD750 and 950 for grading to film profiles so the RS-60 shouldn’t do any worse. Like I said earlier, we were really happy with the result when targetting P3.
Evangelos: good points about archiving.
To adress Steve’s points:
I saw a difference in the deepest shadow behaviour between a 1000 point profile and a 4000 point profile. Possibly user error so I’d have to check again. I acknowledge you have significantly more experience on this end than I do.
Also to avoid misunderstandings: I never meant to imply that Lightspace was less accurate than Cinespace – just that I thought Rory was comparing the duration of a 1000 patch profile to a 4000 patch profile… Cinespace does the 1000 patch profile in less than 50 minutes but like I said I saw a difference. During this project I stuck with a full cube profile to rule out any problems on that end.
For me this projector performed like I hoped. I’ve also looked at the Projectiondesign Cineo 32 but I can’t stand the rainbow effect of single-chip DLP’s, and their 3-chip DLP is in a completely different ballpark.
Hope this is useful information for some of you.
Barend
Michel Hafner
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That's about 7000:1 On-Off contrast. The RS60 is supposed to have ~10 times this much. ??
Steve Shaw
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I've calibrated a number of D-ILA projectors in recent years and have a real dislike of them due to instability and drift, as well as poor shadow detail. Try profiling one day, and then re-profiling the next - the difference can be astounding.
Have you download the LightSpace calibration images and checked the brightness/contrast frames? Can you see all the patches at once, at their correct levels?
I have used a lot of Cineo32's and find the 'rainbow' effect a lot less of an issue, especially as you only tend to notice it when moving your head and blinking at the same time -which is not something I do when grading. :smile5:
There is also confusion over the 1D RGB calibration CineSpace does, based on RGB decoupling, so not 3D in form.I know of not displays that correctly decouple RGB, so a 3D profile is always required in my mind. Just checking we all know what we are talking about.
Have you download the LightSpace calibration images and checked the brightness/contrast frames? Can you see all the patches at once, at their correct levels?
I have used a lot of Cineo32's and find the 'rainbow' effect a lot less of an issue, especially as you only tend to notice it when moving your head and blinking at the same time -which is not something I do when grading. :smile5:
There is also confusion over the 1D RGB calibration CineSpace does, based on RGB decoupling, so not 3D in form.I know of not displays that correctly decouple RGB, so a 3D profile is always required in my mind. Just checking we all know what we are talking about.
Barend Onneweer
Well-known member
With the RS-60 I don't see much instability between profiles so I'm not too worried about that. Possibly the chips have improved...
Shadow detail is really good in my perception and we've actually paid a lot of attention in that area since half of the film is night exteriors. We were very impressed with how well our grading intent matched (subjectively) the Barco.
I'll take a look at the Lightspace calibration images.
The perception of rainbow effect seems to differ from person to person. I've had multiple full-time colorists warn me against the Cineo32 so that, in addition to my own experience with it steered me away from that projector. And in addition the Cineo32 is significantly higher priced.
Not trying to sound like a know-it-all when obviously I'm not, but just trying to explain my personal choices to those interested ;-)
Michel, I'm sure in a lab environment you can get a higher contrast out of the projector. Although I've got dark grey curtains on the walls and a fairly dark ceiling the room isn't a full batcave so I'm sure the blacks could be even blacker... With all colour settings disabled in the projector and at high lamp mode I've measured over 35 fL on the screen. White point well above 8000K though, so not all that useful.
On another note: do all projection screens smell so bad when they're new? Sheesh...
Shadow detail is really good in my perception and we've actually paid a lot of attention in that area since half of the film is night exteriors. We were very impressed with how well our grading intent matched (subjectively) the Barco.
I'll take a look at the Lightspace calibration images.
The perception of rainbow effect seems to differ from person to person. I've had multiple full-time colorists warn me against the Cineo32 so that, in addition to my own experience with it steered me away from that projector. And in addition the Cineo32 is significantly higher priced.
Not trying to sound like a know-it-all when obviously I'm not, but just trying to explain my personal choices to those interested ;-)
Michel, I'm sure in a lab environment you can get a higher contrast out of the projector. Although I've got dark grey curtains on the walls and a fairly dark ceiling the room isn't a full batcave so I'm sure the blacks could be even blacker... With all colour settings disabled in the projector and at high lamp mode I've measured over 35 fL on the screen. White point well above 8000K though, so not all that useful.
On another note: do all projection screens smell so bad when they're new? Sheesh...
mikeburton
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YES! Our Stewart took almost a month to completely air out. Got a good buz on installation day
Evangelos Achillopoulos
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I also haven't notice drifts with JVC high end projectors... not considerable at least...
The 0,01Cd is very good... you need though to adjust a bit the intra-frame contrast with a bit of gray in the walls... your curtains are good by lack... you have to play with it intentionally... image can look very contrasty, when in reality film doesn't reacts like that... an error which leads to a misjudgment...
LUT's don't control intra-frame contrast...
There is difference in the blacks and in color hues in the mid-tones with quick 3D...
I only prefer full 3D...
The 0,01Cd is very good... you need though to adjust a bit the intra-frame contrast with a bit of gray in the walls... your curtains are good by lack... you have to play with it intentionally... image can look very contrasty, when in reality film doesn't reacts like that... an error which leads to a misjudgment...
LUT's don't control intra-frame contrast...
There is difference in the blacks and in color hues in the mid-tones with quick 3D...
I only prefer full 3D...
roryhinds
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Is anyone using the JVC DLA-RS50 with a HDLink Displayport 3D?
I'm having nothing but problems displaying a 1920x1080 23.976fps Progressive signal but my old JVC DLA HD100 works fine with the same signal.
I'm having nothing but problems displaying a 1920x1080 23.976fps Progressive signal but my old JVC DLA HD100 works fine with the same signal.
Bruce Allen
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Hey Rory - did you hear back from JVC or Blackmagic?
I was thinking of doing something similar to you - well, actually using the RS30 (the one without the good CMS)... but connecting it to a HDLink Displayport 3D to fix the color issues with the HDLink's LUT system.
I thought they fixed the HDLink's issues? Darn it. Though as it works with your old projector, it sounds more like a JVC issue than a HDLink one.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
roryhinds
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Hi Bruce
I managed to get it to work with a Displayport to HDMI adaptor then an HDMI cable to the projector.
For some strange reason it just didn't work with a straight Displayport to HDMI cable and needed the adaptor in between.
I managed to get it to work with a Displayport to HDMI adaptor then an HDMI cable to the projector.
For some strange reason it just didn't work with a straight Displayport to HDMI cable and needed the adaptor in between.
Bruce Allen
Well-known member
Thanks, Rory! Drinks are on me when you're in LA, OK? Otherwise, would love to hear what you think of the projector!
BTW - big thank you to Barend for the comprehensive report!
Now I need to decide whether to get a JVC this year or wait until September to see what they announce for next year... but then I might as well wait a few more years for Red's 4K one! The RS40 might tide me over nicely...
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
BTW - big thank you to Barend for the comprehensive report!
Now I need to decide whether to get a JVC this year or wait until September to see what they announce for next year... but then I might as well wait a few more years for Red's 4K one! The RS40 might tide me over nicely...
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com