Just watched first part of zacuto shootout....

[sergio arguello]

thats another reason I have never put one penny in zacuto's pockets not to mention their stuff is as toy as their tests!!!!

 

[Nick Morrison]

I just don't see the need for character assassination here, to suggest that the results were due to dishonest behavior. That's taking things too far.

I agree. I can't imagine anyone TRIED to make RED look bad.

However, Zacuto should have waited, tried harder, and made sure every camera had an ASC caliber DP, so that the playing field was much horizontal.

 

[Jon Jones]

David, you are in on the conspiracy, I knew it! Doh... See I told you I can't help but think it's a conspiracy. kidding.

See, that's where I have a real problem, the notion that the guy shooting the Red footage and the guy coloring it deliberately sabotaged their Red footage. Generally these people are professionals (odds are high that I know the person who shot the Red footage for the Zacuto test) and are not trying to "make Red look bad". Zacuto asked Red to participate in the test, which is not the action of someone with a nefarious plan to make something look bad.

The only "shoot-out" I've seen to date is the older PGA-ASC test and the pre-MX Red footage was fine, not perfect, but the flaws were flaws that I've seen in other people's Red footage, there were no surprises there. Maybe some of us knew that Red could be made to look better but the mixed results were not atypical either. Rather than cry foul I think it would be better to learn from the mistakes in the testing methodology so that one didn't repeat them on one's own projects. And a lot of the problems with the footage were fixed in the later MX-sensor and the later color science, which just shows that there was room for improvement after all.

I just don't see the need for character assassination here, to suggest that the results were due to dishonest behavior. That's taking things too far.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I agree Nick. I feel bad for Ryan too. He's a talented DP, but a test like this has so many variables.
Here is the link to Ryans Blog:

http://thetown-crier.blogspot.ca/

I actually kind of feel bad for Ryan Walters, because I got the sense he tried really hard, and did the best he could.

From what I remember...some of the other DP's at the shootout were ASC Guild members...ie Industry Heavy Weights...

How fair a fight was this, really?

I mean...because the shootout puts so much emphasis on the choices each DP brings to the table...what are we really seing?

How good the Epic or Alexa is? Or how good the DP lighting the scene was?

That's the main FLAW with this test.

If you read his blog, RYAN clearly did the best he could. But when you read his blog, you also get a sense that were other DP's there with vastly more experience than him. I think it was unfair position to put him in, and a silly way to compare the cameras. Zacuto should have waited till every camera had an ASC guild member at the helm, then it would be fair. Anything less is not acceptable.

 

[Les Dittert]

Are there at least some stills posted from the test footage somewhere ?
I hate talk, I want to see the images.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Red is such a wildcard of company that has generated more controversy, intrigue, and antipathy e.g. corporate break-in's, stolen cameras, and email hacking by respected members of the industry, that I have no idea what to truly think.

Did the people directly working on the Red part of the test intentionally not do their best? I *HIGHLY DOUBT* it!

Was there bias on the part of some of the people who were involved with some aspects of the testing? I would be surprised if there wasn't.

 

[Laco Zamba]

I bought RED ONE four and half years ago without any tests.
All I saw was some 2K ProRes portions of Crossing The Line and stills from Milk Girls

 

[Ash Worth]

Kudos to Ryan for having the balls to participate in the project.

 

[Peter Moretti]

+5K!

 

[Liana]

I know the epic can look fantastic, but if i was naive and took one test as the 'be all and end all' of cameras as people seem to, i would not want to buy an epic, i would want a F3 or alexa or the cine that made the gh2 look good.

Apparently this is the whole purpose of this laughable "test", so, mission accomplished.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Any further personal attacks will bring out this guy.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Kudos to Ryan for having the balls to participate in the project.

+1

Ryan is a good guy!
A smart guy
And a knowledgeable guy.

The test premises seems rather odd, though, but that is not a reason to attack him!

 

[Martin Stevens]

+1

Ryan is a good guy!
A smart guy
And a knowledgeable guy.

The test premises seems rather odd, though, but that is not a reason to attack him!

+1

Ryan is very talented.

 

[Nick Driftwood]

Its just a test...

Its just a test...

Guys its just a test. The RED Epic is awesome do not worry. At the other end of the platform the GH2 performs admirably well for such a small device (and v cheap) together with the all Intra Quantum settings of mine. Buy one as a second/third unit - or recommend to small budget filmmakers - its not an enemy of RED!

Its no surprise that Zacuto chose to include the GH2 in their test - its way better than 5DmkII/III/7D.

What this test just proves once again is how good the filmmaking is in the eye of the maker/beholder, lenses and grading.

I love RED but I love the GH2 too...

 

[Andy White]

Guys its just a test. The RED Epic is awesome do not worry. At the other end of the platform the GH2 performs admirably well for such a small device (and v cheap) together with the all Intra Quantum settings of mine. Buy one as a second/third unit - or recommend to small budget filmmakers - its not an enemy of RED!

Its no surprise that Zacuto chose to include the GH2 in their test - its way better than 5DmkII/III/7D.

What this test just proves once again is how good the filmmaking is in the eye of the maker/beholder, lenses and grading.

I love RED but I love the GH2 too...

Nick - good to see you here & great work on all the hacks :thumbsup:

My 2 cents (well, 2 pennies - I am a Brit!) is simple - there's a place for all.

However, like there is a strong RED 'voice' there's also a very strong 'GH2 is better than anything' voice that shouts loudly over the internet - and it's this FUD that distracts everyone. I wonder how many people have actually used a RED for an extended period? (ie not getting one for a day, but understanding it as a tool, as the same user would with their other camera).

Having used a lot of cameras over many years, I love the GH1/GH2 (only use with PL lenses - which is a style choice) and I love the Epic. The thing is, coming off a fair bit of usage recently, the Epic has a lot of things that really shine and it's a lot like working on film. DR is the true separation point for me (plus RAW workflow in post).

B cam for GH2 (although, oddly, I do prefer the GH1 image - maybe I'm weird!)... Bcam for the upcoming BMC too... and it's great that all this choice is out there now. Epic is your A camera... or GH2 if that's your personal choice... or if it's a choice dictated by budget, whatever you can rent!

Really, it's all down to perspective on these things - and the Zacuto tests add to this. There isn't a definitive answer.

If you'e an aspiring filmmaker and your take-away of these tests gives you confidence that the super cheap GH2 will give you quality that'll be acceptable, that's great (although, I presume the Zacuto test was done with PL glass on the GH2 - so maybe that puts the purchase price up a little I'd have loved something like this to do work on in the 80's (LOL).

On the other-hand, would you want to risk a mid-range to high-end budget on a DSLR... (any DSLR)... well, that's your choice and that of the Agency/clients etc.

When all is said and done, it's about money and your comfort in spending it (and recouping it). I'll be upgrading my EVF to OLED - and that upgrade costs more than a GH2... but the comparision is onerous, as it all depends what you need and what arena you're playing in and what your requirements are.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I could be wrong about this but I thought the originator of this entire project stated that he was making a FILM. It appears to be a kind of Doco accounting of camera culture, so it seems fair to remind everyone that it is a documentary first, and a "test" or "Shootout" second. I could be completely wrong about this so correct me if I am.

If the goal of the project has always been the making of a film then any outcome is immediately suspect, regardless of genre. That is not to say that there was ANY conspiracy to manipulate the findings at the outset, but as film makers we understand that the story lies in the hands of the film makers and they have complete control of how it is ultimately presented and therefore (to some lesser degree) how it is perceived.

Also, it seems to me that to have a successful film one needs conflict, right? The Zacuto people needn't create that did they? There is enough naturally occurring drama and acrimony in the subject matter that all they needed to do was capture, structure and shape it then drum up enough controversy to give it self-promotion.

They seem to have found excellent subject matter for a successful low budget film. Good for them on that score. From what I'm hearing I am a wee skeptical about how they went about it. I'm not even sure I am willing to patronize the film in order to form any opinion about it at all, but I will admit that my curiosity is up.

 

[Emanuel A.]

(GH2) its way better than 5DmkII/III/7D.

I would never confirm it in any circumstance as far as 5DIII concerns at least, where there's no visible aliasing/moiré pattern. Try to push the GH2's sharpness @post as same as 5DIII to match GH series sharper outcome and you'll randomly get it, if not already from the raw shot. You'll never get the same hassles with the last one by Canon.

 

[Tim H.]

So after all of the "high profile" movies released that have been shot on RED cameras there are some of you that are worried about a camera test done by a camera support / accessory company? Who cares? Why the personal attacks?

It's obvious by now after watching some of these films (as some looked far better than others) that the RED Epic can shine, so who cares about one little test? The bottom line is that this just goes back to the old saying - "talent over technology", except in this case it could be said that the talent behind the camera was there but the technology matters in the sense that some camera workflows require more finesse and that the RED Epic may not be a shoot and finish camera, it needs some proper care during "exposing" of the final digital negative so to speak.

However, to say that they did this on purpose and to read the attack army at work here in the forums is what makes many people not want to play in the RED sandbox. If I were working at RED I'd want to find out why the camera did not look as good as it should have (other than sabotage), I'd want to make sure we as a company were giving all of our users the right information and education to use the cameras correctly, from set to post. I'd stop wasting time in the vast forums of hate and put the time and resources into education.

If you believe that the test was well intended and fair (as I and many others, including David Mullen do) then ask yourself, why was the RED Epic not as easy to make look good as the Alexa and how do we address that.

 

[Maxi Claudio]

I love the idea of wide dynamic range. HDRx. But with proper lighting, its less important. In the end those blacks will be crushed and what is the true dynamic range of an LCD TV or digital projector?

 

[Francis Kenny]

I was there. I attended the screening at the Skywalker ranch as a guest of Canon. And my intention is to not attack anyone. But this was my impression. I was joined by senior ASC cameramen both of whom were ex presidents of the ASC. If anyone who calls themselves a cinematographer considers this absurd exercise in stupidity a test they truly don't have a clue. The test was absurd. It was unprofessional, the set was from Happy Days, the music droned, and everything looked quite bad. The iPhone was looking as good as the F65. Where I was sitting all three of the ASC cinematographers, which included Richard Crudo, ASC, Daryn Okada, ASC, and myself, Francis Kenny, ASC all thought the Epic looked the best. And even that had been murdered. But seriously, you can not call this "thing" a test. However noble the cause, or whatever the hidden goal, of which none of us could figure out the point of taking a 5K camera, shooting it at a high compression ration, not knowing what algorithm was used to process the footage, then down rez'd to 2K, all of which will be shown on YouTube, how much more absurdity can there be? What we saw was an exercise on how someone could degrade an image to the point of getting a beautiful cameras like the Epic, Alexa, or Sony and get it to look like an iPhone. And we all know that watching something on YouTube is a wonderful judge of resolution. Come one people, either see the king has no clothes on or chose a different profession. This was worse than driving with the brakes on. The only test I saw was a test of my patience and how long we could keep from laughing. If someone truly believes there was science happening I suggest they seriously chose another profession as quickly as possible.

By the way, a test is when things are done scientifically. Where each camera is shot and processed with the oversight and control of the manufacture. And each camera is allowed to be used to the best of its ability. This was Alice in Wonderland taking place at Skywalker. Sorry, but unfortunately that's what happened. I hope people don't take this stupidity seriously and they question what they are looking at. I apologize if I'm hurting anyone's feelings but I have to be honest about what we saw at Skywalker. What it proved was that it's easy to screw things up to the point of making everything look terrible. If you like what you see and believe it to be a test then I suggest you shoot your next project using your iPhone. Good luck.

I recall the first time I saw project Greenlight. I arrived at my set where I was shooting the next day and told my assistant that I had seen a brilliant show called Project Greenlight and it had to have been written by Christopher Guest or Michael McCean, the people from Spinal Tap because it was so funny and those guys know how to write brilliant comedy. The assistant then told me with a very straight face that the show was not comedy but serious. My face dropped. I thought, could people be that dumb? Only in the movie business.